What HS Coach Has Burned Out the Most Runners?

RH wrote:

why did koeppen get fired? i went to his running camp and was a big fan of the guy and was just wondering if anyone can let me know what happened

Koeppen did not get fired. Whoever posted that is somehow misinformed, because I can tell you with much certainty he is still employed by Carmel HS.

Old School Credit Due wrote:Urgh, what colleges did these girls end up running for and are they still running competively now?

Searching 4 Answers wrote:

For starters, here's Saratoga's 2002 State Championship Team:

Nicole Blood, Melissa Trauscht, Ali Rowe, Meghan O'Conor,

Jamie Sweeney, Kirsten Hornbach, Amanda Meyer, Ruby Solomon.

Also, Danielle Coon, Brittany Welsch, Samantha Curran

Where are they now?

Urgh, what colleges did these girls end up running for and are they still running competively now?[/quote]

11 girls on a varsity cross country squad? Funny, they only let us run 7. Blood is at Oregon, Trauscht Manhattan, Rowe is at a CC but running, O'Connor UCONN, Solomon Wheaton. That's 5 of 8 (or 11 in your world) competing in college. Once again, please produce teams that do better than this or STFU.

LIST 10 TEAMS THAT HAVE HALF OF THEIR VARSITY SQUAD COMPETING 5 YEARS LATER OR ACCEPT THAT THIS PROGRAM IS AMONGST THE TOP TEN IN PRODUCING COLLEGE ATHLETES.

Agree, todays latest training advice coming through from coaches is simple- train shorter with quality than feel compelled to train in excess of 80-100 miles per week just because other athletes do this because they think it produces elite successful runners. Quality not quantity with plenty of variety and coach/peer motivation is all that is needed nowadays for success. 101% effort and hard wark at all times though!

Um urgh, Solomom ran 25:xx for 5k at Franklin Park her frosh season at Wheaton, she no longer runs for the team. Not the kind of stuff you expect from a sub 5:00 hs runner.

Running is college is great, but running slower in college than in HS is not so great.

haha wrote:

adams never ran xc for saratoga. she swam. and keene is D3.

but saratoga is a really good program. the kranicks might not be the best coaches but if they really were doing something bad then ppl would have found out by now.

Jen never ran XC for Saratoga as it conflicted with the fall swimming season but she did run for the Kranicks on Saratoga's track team. Yes Keene is D3 but she's running well and hitting PRs and should be very proud of her accomplishments.

InjuredandOut wrote:

Is Melissa T. running for MC? I don't think she ran for Toga her jr or sr year due to nagging back injury. Hopefully the 1-2 year break away saved her.

If you're referring to Melissa Trauscht she is running for Manhattan, was in their top 5 during XC these past 2 years and recently ran a nice track 5K. She actually ran in the 2004 XC state meet her senior year on their state championship team that won NTN.

Ashley Campbell is a freshman at Maryland, made their varsity top 7 and was obviously improving as she ran a VCP 5K course PR at ECAC Championships. I believe she's out now with a stress fracture, I also believe this is her first injury in her entire running career.

Lindsey Ferguson is a freshman at Notre Dame, contributed to their varsity top 5 during XC, scored points in the Big East indoor championships. She ran a 4:53-4:54 mile during indoor and has hit the regional qualifier in the 3K steeple during outdoor.

Kipling Hill is a freshman at Columbia she competed for them during XC, indoor and outdoor but did not make their varsity top 7 for XC. Still a little premature to write off her entire collegiate career I think. Also she falls in the group of many former Saratoga girls who were not even in the top 20 individuals at the state xc meet. Obviously some girls we've never heard of go on to be amazing in college but it's not surprising that someone who can't hit the top 20 in the NY state meet has trouble being a D1 All-American. It doesn't really imply decline in performance. Some of other girls mentioned in this thread like Meghan O'Connor would fit this profile as well.

Nicole Blood is a freshman at Oregon--I'm not sure the Kranicks can really take credit or should accept blame for anything she accomplishes at Oregon as she stopped training with them about 18 months prior to starting college. She entered college with a stress fracture but worked her way into Oregon's top 5 and is getting close to her sophomore track PRs.

To my knowledge Margie Boltzer (URI) Jamie Sweeney (URI) and Tessa Auwater (UVM) all competed through their senior year of college and ran some PRs in the process. Perhaps more importantly many former Saratoga girls continue to run recreationally and pop up in 5K road race results. "Burned out" Erin Davis recently ran a sub-3 marathon.

Why are you wasting your time defending these programs. Anyone who has an ounce of sense knows that the mead's, kingswoods, Yorks and CBA's run well at every level their athletes want to run at. Each program is built on the efforts of mostly 4:20-30 kids. That is why they win. Year in and year out these kids run solid times when the schools around them don't. Most kids will never be 14:30 guys much less sub 14. In fact most kids probably enjoyed their HS careers and then want to do something else (like 99.999% of the world). The bashers on here spent 4 years in HS getting drilled by these teams and now spend hours bashing anyone and everyone they can on message boards. Laugh it off. You won states. They were the kids angry and looking for excuses on their 3 minute warmdown followed by throwing a frisbee around.

Wow, that says it all. The kranicks really are the best coaches and mentors of all time.

But wait...what about you? How has your progress been going? Hit any PR's lately?

So not only do you have an enormous photo album somewhere, but you also keep a diary. Your dedication is amazing.

all the toga kids hate the kranicks but no one ever says why. until they come up with a reason, i believe they are good coaches.

Check your facts Wild Oscar. I was Captain of the Saratoga Boys Cross Country Team in 1987, ran all four years in at Syracuse University where I was Captain of that team in 1991 and I still run today...TWENTY YEARS AFTER HIGH SCHOOL. One of the Kranicks assistant coaches is an old high school teammate of mine and I don't know many that stopped running that did go on to college competitive running (no, not everyone in high school does and it doesn't have too much to do with burning out). Since these little blogs don't show your age...don't know if you were out of elementary school or not then, but maybe a little research before you go citing numbers like 100%. I can't speak for their current team, but I do know they haven't had to do much "recruiting" as you say...seems that people actually move to Saratoga to have a good running coach. Notice - they haven't moved anywhere in 20 years...your accusation seems a little strange to me, the coaches I knew bought the poorest kid on the team his shoes out of their own money in 1986 - and no he wasn't one of the fastest kids on the team. Too easy to attack people you don't know...

Koeppen-15 wrote:

Hi Diane -

You are soft.

Love,

Koeppen

My sister had no right to post that. She never ran for coach Koeppen. I did. If you had to name the coach who burned out the most runners, it would have to be Diane Bussa's father and coach, and also my coach, before finding comfort and joy in the sport via Coach Koeppen in 1981.

Coach Koeppen instilled a love of the sport, a passion for seeking motivation and strength from others and from within....It is actually too bad that my sister never had the opportunity to experience this as a young runner. Coach Bussa forbade anyone to coach Diane and understandably so....but he also was abusive and overbearing.

So, Coach, I apologize for my sister's harsh public comments. I'm sure the hundreds of runners who had the priveledge of running for you surely disagree.

Love you, coach. YOU were the best coach I ever had, no matter what a Bussa says.

Love,

Cath

The above information is false their was only 4 high school runners from kearsley that ran under 9.20,Craig Dickinson was the only one who finished as a college runner.Flint kearsley under larry wiltse as a cross country coach won 4 state class a titles ,4 state runner up finishes,15 top 20 finishes,a boat load of leauge title and regional titles and more invitational win and dual meets wins than i can count.So if only 1 of 4 sub 9.20 2 milers finishes college as a runner,thats not the coaches fault.also as a member of 3 of his teams from 1969 to 1971,i never heard the words i am not here to train college runners... im here to train high school athletes,---i did here the words respect for your fellow runner and never cut anyone down.

Interesting thread. Too bad I'm only now discovering it ... ten years after it was active!

I disagree with Imb about burnout not being a real thing. I think ti is real. I agree with Imb though that there are many other factors besides burnout that may contribute to successful high school runners not having continued success after high school.

A big one that Imb did not mention is physical aging. In high school athletics, not just CC but any high school sport, the most successful athletes are often those whom are the most physically mature. The 18 year old high school senior who had their final growth spurt 3 years ago as a freshman and is as physically mature as any 24 year in their prime, is clearly going to have big advantage over the 18 high school senior who is maturing at a slower pace and perhaps hasn't even started shaving yet! The more mature athletes often are successful less because of any natural talent or due the fact that they work so much harder than the others, but simply because they are 17 or 18 year olds who look like they are 22, 23, or 24, competing against 16, 17, and 18 year olds who look like that are 16, 18.

The slow and normal maturing kids eventually all mature of course though. And when they do catch up physically with the early maturers suddenly the big advantage the early-maturers had from being more mature vanishes and it seems like they’ve regressed. Its not that they've regressed though. It simply that the main thing they had going for them was the advantage of early physical maturation, and when that was gone they became average relative to others.

Very insightful and SOOOO true. Watching the winning kids at my son's XC races and then watching my son come by much later......men vs. boys. No exaggeration. Same happened to me, but you do catch up and often pass them by years later when everyone is fully mature and the difference is only talent and work.

NoBrainer wrote:

The winner here by a wide margin are Art and Linda Kranick, who coach the Saratoga, NY high school cross-country team. Their girls HS team has been ranked #1 or #2 every year for the last decade or longer. Scores of fast HS girls over the last decade. Yet not a single one has done squat in college. Zippo!! A 100% burn out rate!!

Some thought Nicole Blood would be the first exception, but she surely looked burned out her freshman year. Any NY area runner showing potential should avoid being recruited by Saratoga (yes, they do recruit) like the plague.

I would say just the opposite from the information supplied. What you call burn out, is likely average to mediocre athletes peaking in high school due to excellent coaching and conditioning.

Not everyone excels in college. College is the gathering of all your high school 'stars'. I doubt Saratoga area produces a lot of real top talent, but it seems their coach is able to develop them to be the best in their area.

I suspect you are just from a small fish bowl, and you thought it was a pond.

And if they are talented, run the times, and do get to college, its on them and their new coach to improve. Not their high school coach, who helped them to a better college, and high school recognition.

Don't blame them because you couldn't cut it.

Thanks John Utah. I hope your son is aware of this and sticks with it while he matures. I was a slow maturer too. Very slow. I went to high school during the running boom of the early 80's and I went to school in Indiana which was one of the best states for high school CC in the nation at that time. Chuck Koeppen and the amazing teams at Carmel that people on this thread are talking about raised the bar for everyone in the state at that time.

As a freshman in high school I was 4' 6" and 60 lbs. No exaggeration, I was that small. Still, I ran a 39:35 10 km (roads of course) as a freshman. By the time I graduated high school I was 89 lb. and 5"1" and had dropped my 10 km about a minute a year down to about 35:30. When I graduated college I was still bone-skinny at 120, but was a close-to-normal 5’ 9“. By then my 10 km PR on track was 31:39.

I went to smaller NAIA school for college. Many of the kids I ran against in high school from other schools who beat me regularly in HS went to other smaller NAIA Or D-III schools in the area. I would compete against them in CC and track in college and by my junior year in college none of them could beat me anymore. The truth is it really wasn’t that they were burned out or had slowed down. They were outstanding in high school because they were running 33 minute 10 km as high schoolers. Darn fast for a high schooler, but they were as physically mature as they were ever going when they were in high school; so it was more difficult for them to improve. In college they were still running 33 minute 10 km, but now that was not fast enough to be outstanding. For me, improving every year in college was easy. I was growing another few inches every year throughout college. Just from that alone my times would drop!

lmb wrote:

Someone explain exactly what "Burned Out" means. In 35 years of running this is the biggest bunch of BS I have heard.

What is worse is a talented runner from a poor program who is a potential 9:10 two miler who only runs 9:50 because of poor coaching and never gets a chance to run in college. That is the real problem.

100% agree!

As the father of a D1 walk on, I can attest that my son, and an innumerable number of his High School peers, were under-trained to the point that many didn't make it to the next level.

That's the problem.

My son has a buddy on his D1 power 5 conference team who basically got into one of the top 20 universities in the country because he ran at York. He's done nothing to speak of in college. So what? He got in! He never would have if he ran for my son's high school program.

haha wrote:

adams never ran xc for saratoga. she swam. and keene is D3.

but saratoga is a really good program. the kranicks might not be the best coaches but if they really were doing something bad then ppl would have found out by now.

The Saratoga doctors get lots of biz courtesy those two, esp. Stress fractures for young girls.