Top All Time Kansas Distance guys

[quote]grain trader wrote:

I also believe there was not near as much competition for those kids with other sports. I guess I'm glad we give kids the opportunity to play baseball, tennis, golf, soccer and any other spring sports. We didn't use to have those sports competing against the sport of track, as most schools in our area only offered 2 spring sports.

You are right. I would hate to think how many potential track stars we have lost to baseball, since it became a school sport in the late 70s. I have to admit, if SMN would have had a baseball team when I entered high school (high school was 10-12 back then), I never would have gone out for track, since I had played organized baseball since 3rd grade and played on a 3 & 2 League team at that complex way out in the country, by Shawnee Mission Park; and continued to play summer ball til my Jr. year in high school, when track finally won out.

I thought I would take a crack at ranking the top 5 distance runners from Kansas and the reasons why I ranked them. I’m trying to take into account achievements, honors won, times and longevity. I wanted to rank 10 but I don’t feel like I know enough about the records of runners like John Mason or NCAA champions like John Lawson, Al Frame, and Herb Semper to do it justice.

1. Jim Ryun – The world records, Olympic Silver, along with the NCAA and AAU titles he won say it all. He beat all the time milers of his era.

2. Glenn Cunningham – His world records and his silver medal in 1936 put him right there with Ryun.

3. Wes Santee – He may well be the most versatile runner in this group. Not that many runners can claim to be NCAA cross-country champions and champions in the mile as well. He set world records, won multiple national titles and were it not for his run in with the AAU undoubtedly would broken 4 minutes in the mile and been an Olympic contender at 1,500 in 1956.

4. Randy Smith - He was the 1975 AAU champion in the steeple and his time in that race was at the time in that race one of the 7 best in US history. He ran the best high school double ever at the Kansas Relays breaking 4:10 in the mile on Friday and turning around the following Saturday morning and setting a state record in the two mile breaking 9 minutes.

5. Steve Fein – Multi-time All-American in track and cross-country. He broke 4 minutes in the mile, was a member of the World Junior Cross Country team while in high school.

the top 3 clearly are in their own class due to their times and big races on the world stage in relation to their eras. After the big 3, it's not as clear. I wish Smith would have been more consistent and stayed around a little longer.

that's a good list!

Sorry Matt - I know how you spell you last name, I'm just very poor at editing my own typing (Vavala) and good point about Schoonover (I recall he put up some very impressive 5K times, but again because he went out of state and region guys like him are so often overlooked). that's why I would really like to make a list of top Kansas Road Race times.

And I will check the Missouri Records list (to the person who made that suggestion - that a good idea) Thanks

So - so far we have 1 marathon time Fred's 2:11;35

and some good 5K's

everybody on here please add you times and I will compile the list. Especially if you or you know someone under - say these target time:

Marathon - 2:24

1/2 M - 1:08

10 M - 52:00

10k - 30:30

8k - 24:30

5k - 14:30

2M - 9:10

could reduce or expand based on the sheer numbers.

[quote]grain trader wrote:

20 yrs ago, we could only race 2 distances at 800 or over in a meet. I think that helped the quality of times.

I'm not up to date on this rule, being an old timer living out of state for decades, now; but are you saying that they changed the rule, so as now, a guy could run the 2 mile Friday night (at state), and the mile and 1/2 mile on Saturday? Have alot of top guys done this? I'm sure my coach would have had me do that too, since you were only doubling on Saturday, something most of us did in either the mile/2 mile or mile/1/2 mile back then, anyway; esp. if we were in the team title race. It seems like the abuses could come in the smaller divisions, where a 'one man or women team' could win a meet for a 1 or 2a school; esp. in the girls division, due to lack of depth running 3-5 events.

jerrry wrote

everybody on here please add you times and I will compile the list. Especially if you or you know someone under - say these target time:

Marathon - 2:24

1/2 M - 1:08

10 M - 52:00

10k - 30:30

8k - 24:30

5k - 14:30

2M - 9:10

could reduce or expand based on the sheer numbers.

I ran a 2:24 marathon, a 1:06 1/2, a 49:51 10 mile, 24:08 5 mile, 8:17 3k (on track), 14:28 5k-roads, and a 29:51 10k-roads; but, I know for sure that at least Charlie Gray (and probably many more), ran alot faster than those times. I know Charlie ran: 2:17, 1:04 and 29:01. Kent Mcdonald had a solid road career in the 70s, when living in New Orleans. Younger guys I might not know are probably alot faster, too.

I won't argue that the top three are pretty clear. I think Fein belongs in the top five simply based on his All-American honors and the times he ran at Oregon. Smith's steeple time ranked in the top ten US list when he ran it. I'd like to hear your suggestions Sunflower.

John Lawson could merit top five consideration for his NCAA cross win but his post collegiate career while decent wasn't stellar. John Mason certainly was better after college than Lawson. As JScott (btw, we know each other)brought up my old training partner Kent McDonald was very good. Kent could rate in the top five based on his 4 conference championships, being an All-American and his second place finish to Smith in 1975. He certainly had a better road career than Smith who walked away from the sport after 1976. I'm pretty sure Kent broke 2:20 in the marathon, it's been awhile since I've talked times with him.

1500m 3:50.74

2 mile 8:49.84

5000m 14:10.74

5.1miles, 23:41

[quote]Jayhawk wrote:

I won't argue that the top three are pretty clear. I think Fein belongs in the top five simply based on his All-American honors and the times he ran at Oregon.

What are all of Fein's PR's?

Kent McDonald ran 28:30 at Crescent City Classic one year.

dogscalder wrote:

Kent McDonald ran 28:30 at Crescent City Classic one year.

I remember him doing some fine road racing in the late 70's. I would see his name in the results in Running Times which did a good job of covering results for road racing in those days, nationwide.

go away wrote:

you're such an ass

rob mcleod wrote:

1500m 3:50.74

2 mile 8:49.84

5000m 14:10.74

5.1miles, 23:41

can some of you guys that seem to hate Mcloud, tell us what it is that brings this out of you? What has he done wrong, exactly?

maybe...maybe not wrote:

[quote]Jayhawk wrote:

I won't argue that the top three are pretty clear. I think Fein belongs in the top five simply based on his All-American honors and the times he ran at Oregon.

What are all of Fein's PR's?

I believe 3:59.35, 7:54.26 (Jr yr) & 13:43 (Jr yr). 3rd at NCAA XC & of course he didn't run at all after college (to my knowledge).

I found a 13:47.8h for Ryun in '67, pardon me being lazy & not doing the research on my own, but did he run faster than this after college?

KU indoor/outdoor combined

3k

Jim Ryun - 7:47.84c

Benson Chesang- 7:57.86 (05)

Paul Hefferon - 8:01.51 (06)

Colby Wissel - 8:03.33 (07)

John Lawson - 8:03.60

John Roscoe - 8:07.02

Andy Tate - 8:08.36

5k

Jim Ryun - 13:47.80 (67)

Craig Watcke- 13:51.82(i) (89)

Mark Menefee- 13:52.80 (02)

Benson Chesang- 13:53.01 (05)

Jay Mason - 13:58.2c (71)

Paul Hefferon - 13:59.47 (06)

Colby Wissel- 14:04.37 (06)

Dave Anderson- 14:05.2c (74)

Tim Tays - 14:06.5(i) (82)

good information. the 5k/3 mile is kind of the 'oddball distance'as far as interest and acclaim go. Nothing like the mile and not as popular as the 10k, thanks to the road running boom. Alot of top runners in both the mile and 10k, seem to have relatively poor or non existent times in the 5k/3mile. Top guys on the Kansas list have no decent 5k times to speak of, though it is apparent from their mile times, steeple times, 10k times, etc., that they could have easily run under 13:50.

I was in no way trying to say someone was superior based on 3k or 5k times. Here's an attempt at the 1500/Mile for KU. & also the 10k & Steeple.

Mile

3:51.1h Jim Ryun, 1967

3:58.51i Charlie Gruber, 2001

3:59.0h Bill Dotson, 1961

4:00.5h Wes Santee, 1955

4:00.93 Michael Cox, 1995

4:02.9h John Lawson, 1966

4:02.9h Doug Smith, 1971

1,500 Meters

3:33.1h Jim Ryun, 1967

3:39.0h Bill Dotson, 1961

3:40.1h Michael Cox, 1995

3:41.08 Charlie Gruber, 2002

3:42.8h Wes Santee, 1954

(Don't know if anymore ran faster than Schwehr)

3:43.64 Cameron Schwehr, 2006

3,000-Meter Steeplechase

8:28.54 Kent McDonald, 1975

8:34.4h Bill Lundberg,1976

8:38.01 Andy Tate,2001

8:41.2h George Mason, 1976

8:43.12 Steve Heffernan, 1990

10,000 Meters

28:51.54 Craig Watcke, 1989

29:19.12 Ricardo Amezcua, 1998

29:23.0 Brent Steiner, 1984

29:25.91 John Lawson, 1966

29:26.29 Ricardo Amezcua, 1997

(Don't know if anymore ran faster than Chesang)

29:33.74 Benson Chesang, 2005

Wyco Loco wrote:

10,000 Meters

28:51.54 Craig Watcke, 1989

29:19.12 Ricardo Amezcua, 1998

29:23.0 Brent Steiner, 1984

29:25.91 John Lawson, 1966

29:26.29 Ricardo Amezcua, 1997

(Don't know if anymore ran faster than Chesang)

29:33.74 Benson Chesang, 2005

For some reason the KU media guide is missing the 29:19.72 run by Brian Jensen at Stanford in 1999.

My memory is hazy but I know but Luder was under 4:09 in the mile while at Kansas. The Kansas City Star sports writer grew up in south central Kansas as I recall. I think he ran around 4:07 if not a little faster. Maybe somebody remembers. Bob also was a fixture on the road race scene in the mid-80's in KC.

Just for some clarity here:

My list is for Road race times of Kansas runners: I think Wyco Loco is doing track times. So a few names metioned might not qualify -but correct me if I'm wrong - I thought Charlie Gray was from Missouri. Any details you can add when listing times would help too - like, where you went to High school/College, the year you ran the time, name of race if you remember.

I had also been compiling a mile/1500 list for a while - but there are still some major ommissions (from some of the oldies like these) hs times are listed):

Bob Luder -

Brent Steiner 4:11.1 converted

Mike Petterson 4:12.2 "

Dave Anderson 4:14.2 "

Blaine Campbell 4:14.3 "

Adam Ellison 4:15 from 1500m

Reed Eichner 4:13.4 "

Jim Neilhouse 4:13.7 "

Kevin Kenny 4:11 " from 1500m

Bob Barratti 4:08.9 "

all of these guys had great high school times, which i recently found on an all-time high school best list, but I don't have much on how fast they ran in college.

as per the high school state rules about number of events: it was 2 max when i ran - today they can run up to 4 events each...i don't know when the rule changed, but it is strange that we went from 2 events (with the 2 mile on Fri and 1600/800's on Sat to allowing 4 events all on Saturday). Clealy it makes me think that this alone is a major factor in so few high quality times in recent years + the weather (which is easier to forget) has gone from being extremely dry back then to fairly humid today. One good thing is they have finally decided to switch the 3200 meters back to Friday (this might restore some intregrity to the records/times). The 1-3A will be Fri am with the 4-6A Fri pm and alternate each year according to which classes have the am vs. pm Friday qualifying time slots for the sprints and relays.

or as JScoot said - 2 events over 800 (was the actual rule). Some guys have tried the 3200/1600/800 and some the 3200/4X800/1600...but it has been very difficult with the 3200 being 8:30am-11:00, the 4X800 around noon, the 1600 4:00ish and open 800 around 6:30.

Ryan Wilson (wichit height) pulled off a good 3200/1600 but didn't have much left by 800m time

Lane Boyer (just last year) tried it - with going very easy in the 3A 3200, then 1600, but he also struggled by the 3rd race.

So this year, Boyer may be able to run the 3200 on Friday more aggressively and still come back Sat with a good 1600/800. I think the all on the same day thing (for the past 20 years) has caused the 3200 runners to hold back somewhat.