JIM RYUNS STORY!!!! 5:30 MILE TO 4:10 MILE

living in the past - i think this thread has been interesting for the most part (though i disagree with you)... but i think your remark to the 4:04 miler was totally uncalled for; the guy was just making a point (which i thought was a good one) and you made a personal attack at him... imho something like that ruins everything you may have said which was somewhat intelligent

VEmax is the amount of air being ventilated (maximum expired air ventilation) during the minute that VO2 max was reached. Obviously 180 liters a minute is a lot of air (up near 50 gallons), but I have had guys reach 224 Liters/minute so 180 is pretty typical for someone of Jim's height. If you measure VO2 at a particular speed of running (say 250 meters per minute) and the VO2 value is 50 ml per kg, this means that you would take 4 minutes to run 1000 meters, so you would use 200 ml O2 (per kg body weight) to run 1 kilometer. If on another occasion you were tested at 300 meters per minute, then it would take 3.33 min to run 1000 meters and if VO2 at that faster speed was 60 ml per kg per minute then 3.33X60 = 200 ml per kg per kilometer and you are equal in economy. You might like to always test a runner at the same speed so you could just compare the VO2 at that speed on different occasions (say 58ml/kg at 300m/min on one occasion and 60ml/kg on another at that speed and the first test is better economy). However, if you don't get tested at the exact same speed over a variety of occasions you can't compare the actual VO2 at the different speeds so you convert to ml per kg per kilometer. Typically, 180 to 200 is a good value and the lower, the better is economy. An improvement of 1% in economy is about 2 seconds in a mile (about 1 minute in a marathon). Economy is a typical advantage the East African runners have over many other runners. Better running economy is like a car that gets really good gas mileage (the engine may not be as big, but it does very well with the frame it has to push around.)

What kind of pace was used in evaluating Ryun's economy? A value of 174 is superb, representing a VO2 of about 56 ml/kg/min at 5:00 per mile, assuming that speed was employed during the test. With a max right at 80 in 1972 (~5,900 ml/min / 73 kg), Ryun was operating at only 70% of maxVO2 at 5:00 per mile then.

I'd peg a guy like Jeff Wells as having had excellent economy as well, while my guess is that someone like Doug Padilla had much worse economy but a higher maxVO2.

Living in the Past wrote:

I haven't read Kenny Moore's latest book, because I think he's a crummy writer. The articles I've read are too abstract and philosophical.

Living in the Past - Considering that Moore's book Best Efforts is universally acclaimed as an excellent work, this statement of yours speaks volumes.

I'm basing my opinion on earlier articles by Moore. His article on Viren, for example, could have been titled "Kenny Moore's Quest for Deeper Meaning." There's nothing wrong with finding deeper meaning. I never thought Moore was up to the task in his articles about runners. I didn't find them all that enjoyable. They were too abstract and full of dubious psychology. I get the impression that he tried to raise a sports writing to a higher art form and failed.

Maybe he takes himself less seriously now than he used to. But my early experience with Moore doesn't make me want to read him now.

Jack, To your knowledge has anyone tried to replicate Ryun's training? If so what happened to them?

Living in the past wrote:

There's nothing wrong with finding deeper meaning. I never thought Moore was up to the task in his articles about runners. I didn't find them all that enjoyable. They were too abstract and full of dubious psychology. I get the impression that he tried to raise a sports writing to a higher art form and failed.

Maybe he takes himself less seriously now than he used to. But my early experience with Moore doesn't make me want to read him now.

It's ironic but the things you don't like about Moore are the very reasons why most people think he's one of the best writers about running there is. Because he tried to raise it to a higher form. He might not have turned the world on its end but he largely succeeded.

How do you know what "most people" think about Moore as a writer?

In defense of Moore, I think Best Efforts is one of the greatest running books written.

Catching up here. I was there and you weren't-you're a troll, so we can ignore you.

Living in the past-I still disagree with you, but I still think some of your questions are legit. Just stop dissing on Timmie. He and JD tells stories of the stress coaching dad caused them-they knew they had a great, great talent in dad and they did not want to be the ones destroying them. I may have to check with Timmie, but I remember him telling me how he wrote all the great coaches of his day and asked for their insights.

Jack, fascinating to see dad's training from 1964 and his test results from 64-72. When I went home last night, I looked for his 1972 journal, but only found his 1964-1966 journals. I am pretty sure his 1972 one is stuck in a box back in Lawrence. I'll make a call today and see if mom or dad can find it.

Oletimer wrote:

Jack, To your knowledge has anyone tried to replicate Ryun's training? If so what happened to them?

Or do you mean Timmons' training? I believe Chgray already said that his high school coach did. That coach was Verlyn Schmidt at Shawnee Mission South (in Kansas City) from the 60's to early 80's.

Or do you mean Timmons' training?

No!

Has anyone tried to replicate the work that Jim did as explained in his journals?

I meant "destroying him" on my previous post. Sorry about that.

Big Swede, relax, relax. I know since you're an extended part of the Ryun clan you want to whup somebody, but this is the fun of the Letsrun board. You read the good posts, take the bad ones with the grain of salt and enjoy the experience. Just don't get so worked up you blow your next surgery.

Mike Fanelli-yep, that would be it. And I go remember mom and dad coming home from Boston with some great Reebok gear. What was that great grey and black shoe Reebok had back then? The LX 8500? It was leather and it's counterpart, ie non-leather, was the RX something. Loved those shoes.

Since we didn't always have the same treadmill to work with and some didn't go faster than 6:00 pace, we often used 268 m/min (6:00 pace) ,and sometimes even 250m/min. Granted it would have been nice to look at 5:00 pace or 4:36 because economy usually gets worse with faster speeds. However, many 800/1500 runners we later tested (guys who did a fair bit of faster running, like Boit, Barbosa and Cruz) actually had equal or better economy down under 5:00 pace than they did at 6:00 and slower -- opposite was true for the 10k and marathon types. Using the common standard of 6:00 pace (268m/min), because it allowed us to get that as submax for both men and women, Ryun was around 46-47 ml/kg. Salazar about 45 and Jeff Wells (the best I ever tested at 43+ (164 ml/kg per km). By the way, using an absolute speed (268m/min) to compare men and women, the men show superior economy to women, but if you run both at the same fraction of their respective VO2max, which means the women are running at a slower speed, then women are equal in economy to men. We once tried to have Jim run a 4:00 mile on the treadmill and that ended about 1200 m into it (it can be panicky to keep going at 15MPH when you know you can not relax and slow even slightly and kick in later. With practice I am sure it would be relatively easy. That 4:00 mile failure on the TM was not as bad as his first mile time trial upon arrival at altitude -- 4:28 -- just a few weeks before that relatively easy 3:51 he ran solo in California. Remember TM running is about 7% less costly than overground in calm air.

Drew, it appears to me that your dad raised a fine son. And that's just one more reason that I admire your dad.

Yes, there was a guy from Harding college who copied many of Jim's workouts and did quite well as I remember. Someone help me with his name -- my memory fails me

I'm a college writing and lit prof, and over the years, I've used several of Moore's pieces from Best Efforts ("the Observer," the piece on Viren, etc.) in my classes. Many of my students, most of them non-runners, respond positively to Moore's style, as well as to his attempt to find and convey the deeper meaning in this esoteric sport. This is what good narrative essay writing is all about.

Is Moore the best essayist out there or does he satisfy the needs of every reader? Obviously not, yet he is certainly the best that I've come across at articulating the emotional and philosophical significance of competitive running. I've used the piece on Viren because none of my students know who is is; however, Moore manages to interest them in this figure from a sport that most of them care nothing about.

Professor. Thanks for your post. You make an interesting point about Moore's target audience. I can see how someone who knows nothing about the sport might be interested in a poetic and philosophical treatment of Viren. I was more interested in Viren's biographical details and his rise as a runner. That's what I cared about as a young runner.

When did Viren realize that he had the gift? How did he respond emotionally? Those kinds of detail can be very revealing about the "emotional and philosophical significance of competitive running." We know that for Sebastian Coe his schoolboy championships were more exciting for him than his later success. That's a simple detail that contains powerful poetry for anyone who tried to be the best runner he could be.

I enjoyed Cordner Nelson's book "The Jim Ryun Story" because Nelson was able to give a detailed treatment of Ryun's career and provide insights into the man and the formative people in his life. I came away feeling that I had received an intimate portrait of a guy whom I had bonded with by reading the book.

Moore's article about Viren left me colder than a Finnish winter. Viren is a mysterious character, and unfortunately, he remained just as deep a mystery after I finished reading the article. I did know Ken Moore better than ever, though.

Some people liked George Sheehan--others found him to be self-indulgent. I think the same thing applies to Moore.

Glad to hear a lit prof is giving Moore his deserved props. In fact, I was looking through my running book library this morning and there was a pre-pub copy of Best Efforts, its spine held together with duct tape. I think I've read that book 5 times at least. Also a big fan of No Bugles, No Drums.

Jack-I literally just went through dad's journal where he ran that time trial with you and only managed a 4:28. Went out in 61.5, ran 35 seconds for his next 220 and stopped. To this day he says that experience shocked him into taking Mexico City seriously. I am also intrigued by the effort workouts you had him doing on the sand dunes (anyone wanting to see a picture of it, it's frontpage at

www.ryunrunning.com

).

Living in the past-thanks for the shout out.

And I forgot to add-since I mentioned it in an earlier post, if you go to ryunrunning.com, click on Photos at the bottom. Scroll down and you'll see dad running solo in a USA jersey. That was his infamous mile against the lights during his ITA days (I think run in Boise, but I could be wrong). You can see them on the inside of the track.