Sure, and Crater, Jesuit, Franklin, Helena, Seattle Prep, and CDA have run it a grand total of twice outside of NXR in the last two years. Those are the other teams that have been top 5 at NXR in the last two seasons.
How much do you think sleeping in your own bed and not having to travel is worth? Surely more than just 1 second, right?
I'm not sure how you listing all those teams not often running at Eagle Island is supposed to back up your point or counter mine...
I'm not sure how much sleeping in your own bed is worth. How would you even go about quantifying that? How is that the same as considering the difference between understanding a course intimately due to training there constantly vs. understanding the course very well due to racing there a few times - when considering the context that everyone is running in the same race at the same time?
It's a counter to your point, I suppose. My point is that if Rocky sees the course constantly vs. those other teams seeing it seldomly, Rocky races closer to their competition than they would if the roles were reversed. The same point for sleeping in your own bed, eating your parents' meals, not having to travel, etc. Certainly it doesn't hurt to keep the same routine. That's a luxury that Rocky has at NXR compared to those other schools, and really a luxury that they have that not a lot of other competitive teams have.
We don't know how to quantify that for the Rocky Mountain runners because they don't travel to big meets.
There are something like 4 pages of debate about Rocky Mountain now and I've contributed to that along with Watchout86. I think we're probably just going to cover old ground at this point. It will be interesting to see how this season shakes out with the major change in the region.
Getting back to Idaho XC, let's hear some positive news about which programs are feeling amped up about their summer training.
No top Illinois teams travel ‘far’ other than Plainfield South. DGN and Plainfield North did not leave the state last year. Plainfield North has left once during the regular season, and DGN has never.
Yup, exactly my point. Illinois has done very well at NXN over the years, and yet they don't need to travel often to achieve those results. York was just the example I used because they were historically the premier program. Even moreso than the Minnesota teams that have to lesser extents had success comparable to Rocky Mountain without traveling. They just don't need to: they get some competition locally and build up their JV programs. It's definitely a viable path to developing a competitive program, made possible by having at least ONE big time meet nearby in order to get your varsity the competitive experience it needs.
For Southern Idaho teams, it's Bob Firman. For Minnesota teams, to an extent it's Roy Griak (which isn't the same caliber as Firman) and to a degree league meets in the most competitive parts of the state. For Illinois teams, it's a handful of meets because it is a competitive and deep state in itself.
As long as you are getting a handful of opportunities for comparable levels of competition, you don't need to travel in order to thrive.
No top Illinois teams travel ‘far’ other than Plainfield South. DGN and Plainfield North did not leave the state last year. Plainfield North has left once during the regular season, and DGN has never.
Yup, exactly my point. Illinois has done very well at NXN over the years, and yet they don't need to travel often to achieve those results. York was just the example I used because they were historically the premier program. Even moreso than the Minnesota teams that have to lesser extents had success comparable to Rocky Mountain without traveling. They just don't need to: they get some competition locally and build up their JV programs. It's definitely a viable path to developing a competitive program, made possible by having at least ONE big time meet nearby in order to get your varsity the competitive experience it needs.
For Southern Idaho teams, it's Bob Firman. For Minnesota teams, to an extent it's Roy Griak (which isn't the same caliber as Firman) and to a degree league meets in the most competitive parts of the state. For Illinois teams, it's a handful of meets because it is a competitive and deep state in itself.
As long as you are getting a handful of opportunities for comparable levels of competition, you don't need to travel in order to thrive.
Firman is dead though. If you want that meet moving forward, you're going to need to travel.
Yup, exactly my point. Illinois has done very well at NXN over the years, and yet they don't need to travel often to achieve those results. York was just the example I used because they were historically the premier program. Even moreso than the Minnesota teams that have to lesser extents had success comparable to Rocky Mountain without traveling. They just don't need to: they get some competition locally and build up their JV programs. It's definitely a viable path to developing a competitive program, made possible by having at least ONE big time meet nearby in order to get your varsity the competitive experience it needs.
For Southern Idaho teams, it's Bob Firman. For Minnesota teams, to an extent it's Roy Griak (which isn't the same caliber as Firman) and to a degree league meets in the most competitive parts of the state. For Illinois teams, it's a handful of meets because it is a competitive and deep state in itself.
As long as you are getting a handful of opportunities for comparable levels of competition, you don't need to travel in order to thrive.
Firman is dead though. If you want that meet moving forward, you're going to need to travel.
I don't disagree with that (assuming Firman isn't going to be a big time meet in 2026+ after they find a new course).
I don't disagree with that (assuming Firman isn't going to be a big time meet in 2026+ after they find a new course).
Given that the meet director for Firman is the same as NXR, I think Firman will move to Spokane.
Interesting.
Given that Bob Firman is from Boise and it was stated on their website that he was going to be at the invite in 2026 in the Boise area once they figure out where to run it, I would think that it's likely staying in Boise. It's also very helpful that Boise is close enough to Utah that it makes travel to the meet pretty easy, which is how it got so big in the first place.
I would instead assume that if NXR does indeed end up moving to the new course being built in Spokane, that either a new invitational will be held there and attract a lot of the elite talent OR the existing 'Battle for the 509' meet will be moved there and (hopefully) attract elite talent.
Here's a question that I think we can all be on board for:
If Bob Firman is moved to Spokane or elsewhere in Washington state, are there any Idaho teams that are happy about it?
CDA comes to mind, since they don't race Firman. However, I think that if 2 or 3 Idaho schools place in the top 6 or 7 at Firman, CDA looks even better when they stomp those Idaho schools at the state meet.
Given that the meet director for Firman is the same as NXR, I think Firman will move to Spokane.
Interesting.
Given that Bob Firman is from Boise and it was stated on their website that he was going to be at the invite in 2026 in the Boise area once they figure out where to run it, I would think that it's likely staying in Boise. It's also very helpful that Boise is close enough to Utah that it makes travel to the meet pretty easy, which is how it got so big in the first place.
I would instead assume that if NXR does indeed end up moving to the new course being built in Spokane, that either a new invitational will be held there and attract a lot of the elite talent OR the existing 'Battle for the 509' meet will be moved there and (hopefully) attract elite talent.
I'm not sure there's a location in the Boise metro that can host a meet of that size because of the need for parking. The actual area used for the meet looks to be around 110 acres. I don't know how many dedicated open spaces there are in the area that are actually that size.
Here's a question that I think we can all be on board for:
If Bob Firman is moved to Spokane or elsewhere in Washington state, are there any Idaho teams that are happy about it?
CDA comes to mind, since they don't race Firman. However, I think that if 2 or 3 Idaho schools place in the top 6 or 7 at Firman, CDA looks even better when they stomp those Idaho schools at the state meet.
I don't think Mountain View or Capital really race it with their varsity kids, so probably them as well.
Here's a question that I think we can all be on board for:
If Bob Firman is moved to Spokane or elsewhere in Washington state, are there any Idaho teams that are happy about it?
CDA comes to mind, since they don't race Firman. However, I think that if 2 or 3 Idaho schools place in the top 6 or 7 at Firman, CDA looks even better when they stomp those Idaho schools at the state meet.
I have to imagine that there is always going to be a good invitational in the Boise area. It's regionally accessible (all major NW airports have routes to Boise as does Salt Lake City, Denver, and several California airports), it's within somewhat reasonable driving distance for northern Utah schools for a once-a-year longer distance trip, there are a fair amount of good programs in the area, and those teams are all going to want to have a good local meet to attend. I don't think it'll be near the level of what Bob Firman has been the last 2 decades, but there are enough factors that there could still be akin to potentially a Mountain West caliber meet.
Here's a question that I think we can all be on board for:
If Bob Firman is moved to Spokane or elsewhere in Washington state, are there any Idaho teams that are happy about it?
CDA comes to mind, since they don't race Firman. However, I think that if 2 or 3 Idaho schools place in the top 6 or 7 at Firman, CDA looks even better when they stomp those Idaho schools at the state meet.
I have to imagine that there is always going to be a good invitational in the Boise area. It's regionally accessible (all major NW airports have routes to Boise as does Salt Lake City, Denver, and several California airports), it's within somewhat reasonable driving distance for northern Utah schools for a once-a-year longer distance trip, there are a fair amount of good programs in the area, and those teams are all going to want to have a good local meet to attend. I don't think it'll be near the level of what Bob Firman has been the last 2 decades, but there are enough factors that there could still be akin to potentially a Mountain West caliber meet.
Any large meet needs to be pushed back into October if it’s in Boise. The last few Firmans have been awful for temps.
The biggest thing that meet had going for it was that it was the NXR course. Anybody coming to race in Boise was doing it for that. Unless we can see 4-5 schools really make the jump up into national conversations, it’s unlikely anyone is going to want to come here to race. Short of Boise State backing a meet, I think we will see large local invitationals with high caliber teams seldomly coming in.
I have to imagine that there is always going to be a good invitational in the Boise area. It's regionally accessible (all major NW airports have routes to Boise as does Salt Lake City, Denver, and several California airports), it's within somewhat reasonable driving distance for northern Utah schools for a once-a-year longer distance trip, there are a fair amount of good programs in the area, and those teams are all going to want to have a good local meet to attend. I don't think it'll be near the level of what Bob Firman has been the last 2 decades, but there are enough factors that there could still be akin to potentially a Mountain West caliber meet.
Any large meet needs to be pushed back into October if it’s in Boise. The last few Firmans have been awful for temps.
The biggest thing that meet had going for it was that it was the NXR course. Anybody coming to race in Boise was doing it for that. Unless we can see 4-5 schools really make the jump up into national conversations, it’s unlikely anyone is going to want to come here to race. Short of Boise State backing a meet, I think we will see large local invitationals with high caliber teams seldomly coming in.
Being the NXR course was most definitely a huge selling point. However, do keep in mind that before it became the NXR course there were nationally elite teams going to the meet. In particular I remember Mountain View UT going to the meet as a US Top 5 team.
also, I would readily argue against pushing the meet back. The biggest draw remaining after the NXR course factor is gone will be that it's close to Utah. For a meet in Boise to succeed beyond being merely a state wide meet, you need a reason for elite out of state teams to come in. Northern Utah's teams that want to travel but don't want to go to the Desert Twilight in Arizona, one of the major California meets, or maybe a new NXR Northwest preview in Spokane, will need a place to go. Boise is a closer option than all of those. Their run up to state starts the first week in October, so late September actually works very well for those schools.
My only push back would be that it still simply comes down to 5-7 boys from a HS showing up and being solid on the day, regardless of if Rocky has ran in that park for practice all season, that day in November you still have to show up and be dialed in, but realistically with HS aged kids, there will be wild variation in all teams (sickness, slight injuries, mindset after State, the list goes on and on). I have to appreciate Rocky's consistency on NXR weekend the past few years, albeit with yes an advantage at Eagle Island, BUT in the coming years with a new NXR course coming, we will find out if it was all a fluke like you and yay marxism would like it to be. Crater had 2 borderline professional athletes on their team and finished 4th last fall at NXR due to sickness, the sport can be cruel and unpredictable sometimes.
I don't think its a massive advantage(as I stated earlier). I think it undoubtedly helps and it just so happens that last year would be fairly close if a few athletes were even a second or 2 faster or slower. And yeah a big part of HS distance running is showing up healthy. Its unlucky Josiah wasn't but what can you do. But that the past. Any thoughts on where Bob Firman will be? Boise or Spokane seem most likely to me but not sure what in Boise could handle it.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
There are something like 4 pages of debate about Rocky Mountain now and I've contributed to that along with Watchout86. I think we're probably just going to cover old ground at this point. It will be interesting to see how this season shakes out with the major change in the region.
Getting back to Idaho XC, let's hear some positive news about which programs are feeling amped up about their summer training.
I just did a quick browse of the Strava groups of a few southern Idaho teams. Not every kid is going to log every mile, but it gives a good idea. Format is kids name, this weeks mileage, this weeks vertical gain.
Boise Hugaboom: 65.8 miles, 7,139 ft. Bruce: 60.3 miles, 3,704 ft. Jeran: 60.1 miles, 2,856 ft. McGee: 53.5 miles, 3,880 ft. Linderman: 46.1 miles, 4,530 ft. Wood: 32.2 miles, 2,096 ft. Vogel: 28.4 miles, 479 ft. Johnston: 26.0 miles, 1,296 ft. (he ran 36.2 last week) Restuccia ran 61.3 miles last week for 3,200 ft of gain, but he hasn't logged much this week. I don't see Haines on there.
Eagle: Ogle: 59.5 miles, 5,174 ft. Jeremiah Petersen: 59.4 miles, 4,962 ft. Eliah Petersen: 58.4 miles, 4,923 ft. Pelham: 57.9 miles, 4,390 ft. Klaren: 49.2 miles, 2,740 ft. Gerard: 43.0 miles, 3,399 ft. Lamm: 37.6 miles, 2,534 ft. Taggart: 30.2 miles, 2,497 ft. Porter logged basically nothing this week, Anderson ran 15.7 miles, Culpepper looks like he doesn't log anything at all. It doesn't look like Taggart logs everything.
Mountain View: Chamberlain: 49.5 miles, 1,207 ft. Dodds: 40.7 miles, 574 ft. Potter: 40.0 miles, 2,367 ft. Riley: 33.6 miles, 1,345 ft. Nash: 31.4 miles, 551 ft Jensen: 29.1 miles, 436 ft. Evans 16.2 miles, 189 ft. VandAhlen doesn't look like he's part of their Strava group at all.
Rocky Mountain: Davis: 60.5 miles, 3,065 ft. Kurtz: 45.4 miles, 3,579 ft. Loscher: 40.1 miles, 427 ft. Tuft: 38.5 miles, 29 ft. Maybury: 34.5 miles, 2,782 ft. Nelson: 30.3 miles, 1,145 ft. Clark ran 40.4 miles last week, Wren ran 37.6, Bennion ran 31.5, and Majors ran 31.4. They don't have much logged this week.
Other runners: Colley: 62.6 miles, 3,360 ft. Dye: 59.2 miles, 3,069 ft. Donahue: 40.0 miles, 1,778 ft.
Obviously not all inclusive, but it gives a general idea of trends. Boise and Eagle guys are spending a significant amount of time in the hills. If Restuccia runs the same mileage and vert as last week, their top 5 guys in terms of mileage are averaging 60.2 miles with 4,156 ft of gain. Eagle top 5 is at 56.9 miles and 4,437 ft but are probably closer to 58.5 and 4,770 if either Taggart or Culpepper are running everything with their other top guys.
I'm a little surprised by the Rocky guys averaging 45 miles per week for their top 5 guys by mileage and their top 5 projected runners having an average peak mileage of 41.9 miles (Tuft, Kurtz, Maybury, Loscher, Bennion) over the last 2 weeks with 2,133 ft of gain. They probably aren't logging everything, though.
Rocky Mountain: Davis: 60.5 miles, 3,065 ft. Kurtz: 45.4 miles, 3,579 ft. Loscher: 40.1 miles, 427 ft. Tuft: 38.5 miles, 29 ft. Maybury: 34.5 miles, 2,782 ft. Nelson: 30.3 miles, 1,145 ft. Clark ran 40.4 miles last week, Wren ran 37.6, Bennion ran 31.5, and Majors ran 31.4. They don't have much logged this week.
This spring, people mentioned in other threads that Davis won’t be running for the team anymore, and he put in a lot more miles than anyone else on the team
A team that might fly under the radar in 5A is Skyview. 3 teams will qualify out of District III, and they have Cache Peterson (4:26 and 9:40 in 2024) and an incoming freshman, Kent Bailey (4:35). The district already isn't super deep as it took a 17:47 average to qualify for state last year, and those two match up well with Bishop Kelly's top 2 boys. Beyond Century and Skyline, nobody else is so deep that they are, on paper, that much better than Skyview.