why does David Roche keep banging on about being in sub-4 at altitude shape?

was the workout uploaded automatically from the treadmill or did David have to upload it manually?

no idea man, i'm guessing it broadcasts the data to his watch or phone as the pace data looks very steady, my watch would be all over the place or just show 7:20 pace for everything

his last two workouts he uploaded manually, meaning there was no way to verify the workout he claimed he ran

I'm not anti-Roche, but... the HR graph doesn't match the workout - at least not for the 4:24. He looks to be wearing an armband HR, so you can't blame a watch.

He's in good shape, now go run a 10k at sea level. Or a mile, I guess.

seems like he's using his Garmin watch to track his workout on the treadmill. This is a notoriously terribly way to track workouts on a treadmill--the watches often show you going faster than you actually are

he won't

If you listen to his podcast, his point is that he wants to train like a sub 4 minute miler or that he could. His point is that he wants to show up at these ultras as the fastest mile/5k guy, because science shows that running economy is the strongest determinant of finish time in ultras, even more so than vo2max.

He's recognized multiple times that he would get killed in an actual track race by track guys.

his point is that he wants to train like a sub 4 or that he is sub 4? because from what he has actually said and written, he's claiming that he actually is a sub 4 runner

plus if you run 6 x mile from 4:36-4:27 at altitude you are saying that you are a sub 28 10k runner

That's a bunch of nonsense.
The Leadville 100 record could have been easily broken in the 2010s from Anton Krupicka, if he would have learned how to fuel himself and do more efficient training with less miles. Instead he ran himself into the ground.

Just because this record was broken 19 years later does not mean much. This race does not attract top runners and as a matter of fact in one year they didn't pick Walmsley from the entry applicants.

This thread is classic Letsrun. The folks out for “accountability” (blood) are almost certainly factually correct (David isn’t running a non downhill sub 4 mile… of course he isn’t) but come with a lot of pile on vitriol. Thats what you get when you put yourself out there and capitalize on it, as he has certainly done.

All that said, he and his wife, who is probably a better runner than him (not to mention more qualified educationally) do bring some good stuff to the table:

-Heat exposure = hematological changes. True

-strides = best bang for the buck running economy benefit. True

-hill strides = best bang for the buck power development. True… Brad Hudson has been going on and on and on about that for ages.

-cross training = exceptional way to build aerobic ability, and maybe power, without much impact. True

-Run some hard stuff and some easy stuff= duh

-Eat a lot during a long fairly easy effort = you can keep going. True, with caveats but it’s a worthwhile principal to explore. I’ve benefitted enormously from this.

-potential marginal gains x lots of “interventions” = increase in ability (e.g. bicarb, ketones, etc). Probably true. Just ask any elite athlete training group.

-gimmicky stuff = makes us feel faster so we run faster (ankle weights before running, shaving legs, whatever). Probably to an individual. I had a college teammate who was an absolute monster (Sydney Olympian) who, when asked “why do you shave your legs, that can’t possibly make you faster?” Responded “if you feel fast, you’ll run fast.” Fair enough.

The Roches are a good read and ok listen, depending on your mood for over the top. Both are phenomenal athletes and David tends to come across as “forced nice/authentic” (not talking about the “he sounds gay” crowd… which is amusing. Who gives a crap what his sexuality is. Theres like a 10 page thread on just that which is classic Letsrun)…but they’ve built a brand and put it out there and it seems to work. Sometimes some BS comes out and I roll my eyes.

There is value to how they preach training principals though, more so for aging athletes. I basically train how David spouts off and I’ve genuinely gotten quicker again, at age 45. Not near peak performance in my early 20s, but faster than I had been slogging about previously.

He is not a sub 4 miler. He ought to downplay that. It’s a dumb claim and instead, double down on “I want to train to run as fast a mile as possible while being as specific to 100 milers as needed.”

He’s a talking head. Sometimes they say dumb things and make money off it. I’ve still benefited from reading and listening to them, with a heavy dose of criticality, as everyone should from all info sources (of which most of us don’t do).

I completely agree with what is said here. I think he has really helped a lot of ultra athletes improve their training with these concepts. Most ultrarunners have eschewed anything that resembles road running, and thus leave huge gains in economy on the table in favor of slogging long miles in the mountains. I think he and Megan are at the cutting edge of ultra training theory. Are his claims of 13:30 and sub 4 fitness exaggerated? Of course, but I don't really knock him for this as much as others do.

What I do not understand is his progression especially over the past year. I do not understand how at 36 years old he has seemingly increased his threshold from ~5:10/mile to somewhere in the 4:40 range and running workouts indicative of 28:30 fitness (at altitude I might add). The jump is alarming, and others seem to agree. Is it really sauna, carbs, bicarb and ketones? Perhaps, but I am not certain.

I wouldn’t give so much credit to him and Megan because other big-name coaches also encourage speedwork and strides. In fact, David and Megan seem to just scour X for what the expert coaches and exercise physiologists are saying/finding. They aren’t cutting edge. David directly contradicts his own training advice/theory, depending on what’s trendy. There’s never a correction or attribution.

They are influencers. I get it. But the brand is HIM. It’s not great coaching. It’s just about him. That’s a failure. There are so many better, more informative podcasts and articles to gain training insight from. Without the weird and gross humor. But whatever, some people either like them or don’t know that there are better alternatives out there.

As has been said, why not lean on the fact that he isn’t a top tier road athlete, but he’s beaten them at the trails? That would make him seem like a far better COACH. He can train someone to beat faster people—that is what someone would want. Why make it about his performances? There’s an obvious answer to that.

He’s lying, simple as that. When is the last time he ran a workout like today on the track? I’m going to guess never. Instead he ran it on his treadmill and tracked it with his watch, which cannot judge pace on a treadmill in any accurate way

I agree. Also look at the workout and take a look at the splits. What are the actual splits? And watch says he’s running his rest at like 5:15 pace. Do I have that right???

He ran the 12x400 on a track 3 weeks ago. It's pretty comparable to today's workout if you consider that a treadmill will always be easier because there's no air resistance.

strava.com

Track fun before the baby comes! 12 x 400 in 64-65 seconds! | Strava

THE REINDEER ARE TAKING THEIR BICARB!! Such a fun Some Work All Play ep out now, check it out for a “No Secrets” Q+A 🦖🧡 A couple steady miles post workout. Great vibes on the track today! Surprised by the splits and how smo...

Link:www.strava.com/activities/13183048269

So if he does run a sub 4 mile at this point, he’s doping? But if he doesn’t do it now, he’s lying? Is the goal to hate him no matter what or?

This is nowhere near the same workout.

That 6 x mile workout altitude adjusted was 4:31 down to 4:22. You’d have to be a sub 28 10k runner to be able to do that, which he is not.

also look at the rest pace of that workout. It says he’s running the rest intervals at 5:15 pace. Does that make sense?

when you factor in the supposed paces of his rest intervals, he'd have to be closer to 27 flat shape for 10k. Obviously laughable, but most of his cult followers/athletes don't know enough about running to realize his outlandish lies. Luckily we do