If Lebron gets to 40,000 points, can we agree he's the GOAT

No one seems to care how tough LeBron's finals competition was but everyone loves saying talking about how tough the east was in the 80s and 90s...when 6 expansion teams were added.

Everything comes down to your criteria which is why it is subjective. I personally always separated pure ability in the game (a lot of the things that we can "metric'ize") and greatness in the game. How else can we rate for example Bill Russell? He was a very good player but I'm not sure he was as skillful as Wilt, or Kareem or even Olajuwon. But the guy was the single reason the Celtics won 11 titles in 14 seasons and 8 straight and he is the most decorated player in NBA history.

So for me at least we have a best players list which I base entirely off ability and a greatest players list (of which ability is a healthy component) which factors in other intangibles with things like role in franchise and player evolution, winning record etc.

Ability wise Lebron is one of the three best players across any generation along with Michael and Kareem. But when I talk about greatness if I am consistent with my criteria he just doesn't measure up to Jordan, or Kareem, or Russell or even Tim Duncan - all guys that took franchises from the absolute pits and created a culture of sustained excellence that not only changed direction of the franchise but of other players.

I'll ask anyone this question - tell me the team Lebron has done this with. What is that team? It wasn't Cleveland the first time around and it wasn't the Heat. It's certainly not this Lakers team that constantly needs trade deadline magic just to be somewhat competitive almost every season. So we are left with the second Cavaliers run but that resulted in one title and that's just not enough. I don't know why we can't just agree that his incredible ability at this game is possibly unsurpassed but at the same time is not the great leader that can uplift a franchise and it's players in the same way others have.

You do realize that you have zero understanding of basketball, right?

When talking about advancing to the NBA Finals, conference toughness is measured at the top. The Eastern Conference was notoriously weak for much of the 2010s. That was a common talking point at the time, when many people called it the Leastern Conference.

The average number of wins for Jordan's Finals opponents was better than those of LeBron's opponents. That's a fact.

Others in this thread have praised LeBron for dragging lesser teams to the Finals. He only really dragged one lesser team to the Finals, the 2006-2007 Cavs. The question is how? Look at the Eastern Conference that year:

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OK, so that is an interesting take (and agreed that 40,000 is not relevant).

I'll bite. Who is the GOAT and who are the top 5?

Truth in advertising - I am old enough to have seen peak Kareem (and obviously peak Jordan and peak Lebron). I have no realistic ability (no firsthand knowledge) to evaluate Wilt, Russell, Bayor, Robertson, etc.

From what I've seen, I'd say Jordan is the GOAT. Lebron is top 5. And Kobe isn't even in the discussion.

But I am curious as to your take.

I understand that you are a fool.

Do you have anything else you'd like to share?

The Spurs team that Lebron got annihilated by had an over-the-hill Duncan, an over-the-hill Ginobilli, an over-the-hill Parker and a no-quite-there-yet Kawhi.

So, what superstars might you be talking about?

Don't worry our "quadruple F" friend is on a rampage of deliberate trolling - we need to accept that there are tragic people of such ilk that come onto these boards with nothing constructive to add.

Clearly no team that the Bulls beat to win titles in the 90's was weak. Each team contained HoF players and every team except the Sonics in 1996 included players named to the NBA top 50 in 1996 including Magic, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Stockton.

The irony is that maybe the weakest team any Jordan or LeBron team faced in a finals was the 2011 Mavericks that of course had peak Dirk but relied on huge step-up contributions from guys like JJ Barea and Jason Terry because of their aging roster that included Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion. The one difference is that the Bulls won the 1996 finals 4-2 and the 2011 Heat shockingly lost those finals 2-4.

And of course you can only beat who you have to beat - and at least Michael and co did exactly that. Not sure what the loaded 2011 Heat and Lebron have as an excuse for that finals loss.

Pop and his assistants.

Don’t forget Kyrie!

It might help to take a closer look at LeBron's Finals performances, since that's the biggest knock against him:

2007: Lost 0-4 to the Spurs: I don't really hold this one against him because his Cavs teammates were not very good and that team shouldn't have been in the Finals in the first place. But it's worth noting LeBron played poorly in that series, shooting only 36%.

2011: Lost 2-4 to the Mavs: A subpar series for him in which he averaged only 17.8 points/game and lost to a less talented team. A major stain on his resume. There is no excusing this.

2012: Won 4-1 against the Thunder: A great series for LeBron and a well-deserved Finals MVP.

2013: Won 4-3 against the Spurs: More strong play from LeBron to help his team overcome a 3-2 series deficit. Of course, he benefitted greatly from Ray Allen's big shot at the end of Game 6 that tied the game and sent it into overtime. If Chris Bosh doesn't get that rebound, and if Allen doesn't make that shot, LeBron's looking at a third Finals loss in his fourth appearance.

2014: Lost 4-1 to the Spurs. Mind you, Tim Duncan was 37 at the time, and Ginobili was 36. The Finals MVP was a young Kawhi Leonard. LeBron had a great series but it wasn't enough.

2015: Lost 2-4 to the Warriors. Not LeBron's fault at all. Love missed the whole series, and Irving missed most of it.

2016: Won 4-3 against the Warriors. LeBron's signature series in which they came back from a 3-1 deficit against a 73-win team. Legendary stuff. Many people try to discredit this win saying it was because of Draymond's suspension. I don't buy that. The Warriors had Draymond for Game 6 and Game 7, with Game 7 at home. No excuses. Game 7 was when LeBron had The Block. Spectacular play. I was genuinely happy for him and the city of Cleveland. Just remember that it was Kyrie Irving who hit the championship-winning shot.

2017: Lost 1-4 to the KD super team Warriors. No shame in that. LeBron played well but KD matched him bucket for bucket.

2018: Lost 0-4 to the KD super team Warriors. Irving missed the whole series. No Irving, no chance. This was also the series where JR Smith made that huge gaffe at the end of regulation in Game 1, which cost the Cavs the win. LeBron had played out of his mind, and I felt bad for him. You could see his spirit deflate on the bench waiting for overtime to start.

2020: Won 4-2 against the Heat: Many people put an asterisk on this one because of the Bubble, but I don't. Mental toughness is a thing, and LeBron showed it. It's worth noting that the Heat were the weakest Finals team LeBron faced. They only went 44-29 in the regular season, and they were a 5 seed. If you're going to excuse LeBron for losing to the KD super team Warriors, then maybe you should acknowledge that the 2020 Heat were a rather mediocre team.

So it's a very mixed record. He played well in most of those series, but played poorly in 2007 and 2011. At least 3 of those losses are very understandable and not LeBron's fault because of injuries and/or inferior teammates. Those are balanced out by the wins where he clearly had the superior talent on his side as well as the wins where his teammates hit huge shots. He got outplayed by Tony Parker (2007) and Dirk Nowitzki (2011), and he was matched by KD (2017 and 2018). So that's 4 series where he was not definitively the best player on the floor.

Overall, LeBron has had an excellent career, and he's clearly one of the best to ever touch a basketball, but his Finals record is too mixed to consider him the GOAT. Despite being on a super team for 8 consecutive years, he only came away with 3 championships in that span. That's just not enough to declare him better than Jordan. There can only be one GOAT, and that's Jordan.

Are you saying he was the best player in 6 Finals? Sounds familiar.

I will explain later the author thing. I didn’t write clearly that I see Jordan not as the GOAT and neither Kobe nor LeBron as top 5. Top 4 all-time, in no particular order, I see as wilt, Jordan, Russell, and Shaq. 5 not LeBron yet, as stated, but could be with another championship

Good post and a great finals breakdown there. 2 interesting narratives to touch on...

1) I too give Lebron a lot of credit for the bubble win. Winning in that situation is actually an underrated leadership moment for him - in fact it might have been the best leadership moment of his career. I've always wrestled with the validity of the bubble championship relative to every other NBA championship and while I can't say it's not a holistically valid title win, it was so different in dynamic that it's just not on the same level as an NBA finals which involves week upon week of cross country travel, playing in other teams buildings in front of fans etc. Those guys must have been going stir crazy cooped up there and it's no surprise that the Lakers with Lebron and the Heat with Butler/Spo were the most resilient and rose to the top that particular moment in time.

2) The 2013 title. Man, some huge things at play here. If they lose this game here, Lebron (as you said) starts 1/4 in finals and now has just the 3 rings from 10 finals appearances. That game is one of the biggest legacy shifting games we have ever seen in any sport. 4 rings keeps him alongside Curry and puts him ahead of Bird, McHale, Worthy, Wade which is extremely important. I actually think the 4th ring is the very reason we even keep him in the "greatest ever" conversation and this ring could so easily (and really should have) have gone to Duncan which probably elevates him into the top 5 greatest ever conversation with 6. The reason I bring that up is that I was talking with some friends the other day after the Lions threw away the NFC title game, of what the worst coaching botches of all time are and of course Pete Carroll came up, Kyle Shanahan/Dan Quinn came up but I threw out there that one of the most underrated and little known botches ever came from Popovich in that famous game 6 of the series where he inexplicably had Duncan on the bench for this even more famous possession that resulted in the Allen 3. Popovich at the time couldn't and still doesn't own this insane gaff and relies on some "small ball" logic for defending the 3 that the Heat needed to have, seemingly oblivious to the fact that a miss could be rebounded and a second chance could occur and be made (which it was). He chose to have one of the greatest rebounders and defensive players the game has ever seen on the bench which left a combination of Manu Ginobili and Danny Green on the floor to rebound the miss against Chris Bosh. As it played out Ginobili, Green and a young Kawhi Leonard all inexplicably fail to box out on the rebound and allow Bosh to get a regulation board off a ball that doesn't take a weird bounce from the rim at all. Nobody can convince me that if Duncan isn't on the floor for that possession, that he can't either rebound that ball or stop Bosh from getting it basically right at the cylinder. The Spurs also led by 5 with 28 seconds left and by 2 with 20 seconds left and the ball only to have Leonard miss his first FT. Point being, the Spurs threw this game away and even though we didn't know it at the time, it altered the legacy of Lebrons career.

Shaq. lol. Kareem wipes the floor with Shaq.

Yeah so does Duncan and you can make a pretty good case for Olajuwon too.

Do this analysis for jordan but include the years he didn't make it to the finals since no one knows he played more than 6 years

Weird that you would dig up this thread after over a year, but I'm happy to oblige. To balance out the 10 Finals I analyzed for LeBron, here are 4 playoff years for Jordan beyond the 6 years that he won the championship:

1986: Lost 0-3 in the first round to the eventual NBA Champion Boston Celtics: No shame in that. The 1986 Celtics were one of the best teams of all time (they went 67-15 that year), and the Bulls were a lowly 8 seed that would have been one of the worst teams in the league without Jordan. That was the series in which Jordan scored 63 points in Game 2, prompting a stunned Larry Bird to say his opponent was "God disguised as Michael Jordan."

1988: Lost 1-4 to the Bad Boy Pistons in the Eastern Conference semifinals: No shame in that loss either. Pistons went to the Finals that year, losing 4-3 to the Lakers. Jordan played great, but he had no help. His highest-scoring teammate in that series was Sam Vincent, who averaged only 12.8 points/game.

1989: Lost 2-4 to the eventual NBA Champion Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals: Again, no shame. The Pistons were so dominant that year they swept every other series in that year's playoffs, including sweeping the Lakers in the Finals. Jordan was his usual spectacular self but again had no help. His highest scoring teammate in that series was Craig Hodges, at 12.0 points/game. Also noteworthy: that year's playoff run included Jordan hitting the iconic shot to eliminate the Cavs on the road in the deciding game in the first round.

1990: Lost 3-4 to the eventual NBA Champion Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals. As with the previous year, the dominant Pistons lost more games to the Bulls in that series than they lost to any other team in the entire playoffs. Once again, Jordan was great but didn't have help. Just look at the box score from Game 7. Jordan put up a sublime 31 points with 8 rebounds and 9 assists on 48% shooting. His highest scoring teammate was Horace Grant, with 10 points on a woeful 3-17 shooting. Pippen scored only 2 points on 1-10 shooting, Hodges scored 8 points on 3-13 shooting, Cartwright scored 6 points on 3-9 shooting, and BJ Armstrong scored 2 points on 1-8 shooting. That's right, Jordan's 5 best teammates combined for 28 points on a ghastly 11-57 shooting (19%).

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After such a disastrous letdown by his teammates when he needed them most, Jordan might have been forgiven if he tried to force his way out of Chicago, the way today's stars often do. But nope, Jordan didn't try to form a super team in LA with Magic Johnson. Instead, he stuck with the Bulls, and he won the first of three consecutive championships with the same core the following year.

Respect! For doing it.

And last night's pacers game had me looking on a running site for basketball topics lol

Disagree with the last paragraph though. In comparison. Jordan left his team went to the conference finals. Where Kyrie left thinking he was the man(same way pippen did although he didn't leave) LeBron went back to the finals with an insane playoff run to go with it. Wasn't there like 2-3 buzzer beaters and significant clutch moments in the 2018 playoff run?

Mostly agree with your analysis of both players but I'd give Bron a pass for 07, 11(Kobe does not get killed for being swept by the same team). LeBron definitely choked but he wasn't going to win anyways to be fair.

If Jordan gets a pass for leaving and the team still almost having the same success then shouldn't Bron get credit for leaving a team and the team turning into a rec league team?

Also of note damn some years Jordan did not have help either. I know scoring volume was down in earlier years but still 12.8 pts or teammates combingin for 30 is nothing unless they are going to 80-90 pts total lol

I just think Jordan is a better winner than LeBron but not a better player. LeBrons consistency can't be ignored but neither can Jordans quality. I also don't think we can ignore the changes they both made to their game after being rookies. If we start comparing eras I'm always going to think the players now , or in the 2010s were better players than 80s 90s players. Sure they might be worse at defense but that's only due to refs and rule changes. Hand checking era is completely different than now defensively.