I am curious what ultra marathons you worked at aid stations for. I have done five ultra's and paced someone on a sixth and the majority of the people I meet are running/jogging the trails. Most of the walking in the mid pack is on hills, anything else and they are running. The biggest reason I have seen for the slow average pace in the mid pack is spending waaaaayyy too much time in aid stations. I guess some of this comes down to what you decide is not considered running. 90%? 75%? 51%?. Most of the mid pack runners in the races I have done were in the 75% range for run/walk.
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John___Matrix wrote:
Can't we just have one of these threads instead of some genius comedian each week trying to come up with a hilarious way to troll ultra running.
I think the real discussion here is that 100m sprinters aren't real runners because they can't even run a mile without dying.
Exactly. The trolls who think ultras are some difficult event. We should celebrate ultra runners like we celebrate babies walking. It’s a nice feat but overall very easy.
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John___Matrix wrote:
Can't we just have one of these threads instead of some genius comedian each week trying to come up with a hilarious way to troll ultra running.
I think the real discussion here is that 100m sprinters aren't real runners because they can't even run a mile without dying.
It truly wasn’t meant to be a troll thread. I have repeatedly stated that I have respect for the sport and find it impressive. I don’t pay enough attention to this site to realize there is a weekly ultra bashing thread.
My original question stems from an article I read about Captain Barclay and 18th/19th century Pedestrianism, whereby people competed in endurance competitions. Many of their contests were are exactly like modern ultras and they completed them in similar times. They called themselves Pedestrians and they called what they were doing walking. It made me wonder why people insist on calling walking, running today.
I had no idea that people were so sensitive about the issue.
Call it whatever you want.
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Pedestrianism wrote:
John___Matrix wrote:
Can't we just have one of these threads instead of some genius comedian each week trying to come up with a hilarious way to troll ultra running.
I think the real discussion here is that 100m sprinters aren't real runners because they can't even run a mile without dying.
It truly wasn’t meant to be a troll thread. I have repeatedly stated that I have respect for the sport and find it impressive. I don’t pay enough attention to this site to realize there is a weekly ultra bashing thread.
My original question stems from an article I read about Captain Barclay and 18th/19th century Pedestrianism, whereby people competed in endurance competitions. Many of their contests were are exactly like modern ultras and they completed them in similar times. They called themselves Pedestrians and they called what they were doing walking. It made me wonder why people insist on calling walking, running today.
I had no idea that people were so sensitive about the issue.
Call it whatever you want.
Oh! I too thought for sure it was a troll thread, but it turns out you are just very stupid. I'm really very sorry for you and your family it can't have been east raising you. I thought after all the explanations you were being obtuse, but you're just a special boy. Take care of yourself there and remember to thank your parents when they change your big boy diaper, just because they love you doesn't mean that they enjoy it.
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it\'s the other thing wrote:
Pedestrianism wrote:
It truly wasn’t meant to be a troll thread. I have repeatedly stated that I have respect for the sport and find it impressive. I don’t pay enough attention to this site to realize there is a weekly ultra bashing thread.
My original question stems from an article I read about Captain Barclay and 18th/19th century Pedestrianism, whereby people competed in endurance competitions. Many of their contests were are exactly like modern ultras and they completed them in similar times. They called themselves Pedestrians and they called what they were doing walking. It made me wonder why people insist on calling walking, running today.
I had no idea that people were so sensitive about the issue.
Call it whatever you want.
Oh! I too thought for sure it was a troll thread, but it turns out you are just very stupid. I'm really very sorry for you and your family it can't have been east raising you. I thought after all the explanations you were being obtuse, but you're just a special boy. Take care of yourself there and remember to thank your parents when they change your big boy diaper, just because they love you doesn't mean that they enjoy it.
Do you feel better, now?
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it's the other thing Oh! I too thought for sure it was a troll thread, but it turns out you are just very stupid. I'm really very sorry for you and your family it can't have been east raising you. I thought after all the explanations you were being obtuse, but you're just a special boy. Take care of yourself there and remember to thank your parents when they change your big boy diaper, just because they love you doesn't mean that they enjoy it.
If you're going to call someone stupid - You should probably proof read your rant. Also, Commas are important.
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<<<<< wrote:
Pedestrianism wrote:
100% wrong.
I just call em like I see em. Go work an aid station at any 100 miler. Watch the majority of the participants walking/hiking for a day. Then watch those same people call themselves runners.
I know what running is. That ain’t it.
By the way, nobody’s disputed my claim that the majority of participants mainly walk in ultra events. Why? Because it’s true.
You'd expect them to be walking into and out of aid stations. That's the rest area.
Look at an actual ~100 miles in 24+ hours. Found a random dude on Strava. When it's reasonably flat, he's doing 9 minutes miles even at the very end. He ran the parts reasonable to run in such a hilly course (almost 30k ft. climbing and more than that descending). It's fair to call that an ultrarun. Imagine how many hours longer it would have taken to walk the whole thing instead.
Ah ha you chose to select TDS as an example?! I was in that race too. It was nearly 98-miles with 28,000' of climbing this year and we had to go through extended stretches of 3" of snow and mud....in the night and in fog/rain. It is also a way more technical trail compared to say a UTMB.
I can assure you (I finished in 22 hours) that there was certainly a lot of "powerhiking" as many of the trail grades exceed 15%-20% and it was slippery and technical. After about 50km/30-miles it is generally not very runanble on those types of climbs (keep in mind your pack of required gear weighs over 4lbs) and probably 95% of the field is using trekking poles. I probably wasted 5 + minutes alone having to stop and put on/take off my rain pants and mess around with my second headlamp during the race.
The first mile was run in around 6:40 for me and I was buried in maybe 40th place then. After that you are climbing up a ski resort out of Courmayeur and things get a bit steep.
For sure I was walking out of aid stations nearly every time (helps to digest food) and if you look at my total elapsed time vs actual moving time you can see at some aid stations I was spending nearly 10-minutes (Had to drink some soup with noodles in it and get a mandatory gear check!). So with "moving time" I think I averaged about 12:50/mile pace.
This is actually a pretty "extreme" 100-mile mountain race example though because of the weather this year and the technical nature of these steep mountain trails.
Details on Strava here:
This whole thread is an entertaining exercise of semantics. Would I say I "ran" TDS? Yes!Did I in fact have to walk/powerhike a lot of the climbs? For sure!
Even some of those downhills (think 600 foot drop) are on pretty technical trails in slippery conditions and a 9-min mile actually feels like you are flying when you are 55 miles deep into this kind of race.
Most ultras in the US aren't like this at all though....maybe only Hardrock.
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Yes it is wrote:
it's the other thing Oh! I too thought for sure it was a troll thread, but it turns out you are just very stupid. I'm really very sorry for you and your family it can't have been east raising you. I thought after all the explanations you were being obtuse, but you're just a special boy. Take care of yourself there and remember to thank your parents when they change your big boy diaper, just because they love you doesn't mean that they enjoy it.
If you're going to call someone stupid - You should probably proof read your rant. Also, Commas are important.
I don’t necessarily disagree, however, more importantly, if you are going to call someone out on the need to proofread, you really need to proofread. Thanks for the laugh.
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Fantastic stuff! wrote:
Yes it is wrote:
If you're going to call someone stupid - You should probably proof read your rant. Also, Commas are important.
I don’t necessarily disagree, however, more importantly, if you are going to call someone out on the need to proofread, you really need to proofread. Thanks for the laugh.
Touche
Saw it right when I hit reply. Nooooooooo.
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Backpackers with a little bit of running training can run almost any 100. I bet you a large % of Appalachian trail thru hikers, if they have the physical capabilities, can finish TDS, Hardrock, hell even Tor de Geants, which is 200 miles I think. Whether they can run near the top depends.
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if it's that easy why not do one and just run at 9-10 minute pace and easily win? i am running my first ultra later this month - javelina 100k - a fairly "flat" trail course but it's still *very* difficult to run sub 10 minute pace for that long - 6 of ~300 entrants last year ran sub 10 pace. i personally will not be close to that time and that's okay, i am just happy to be out there :) if it doesnt interest you there are plenty of other race types you can follow instead.
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if that\'s easy do it wrote:
if it's that easy why not do one and just run at 9-10 minute pace and easily win? i am running my first ultra later this month - javelina 100k - a fairly "flat" trail course but it's still *very* difficult to run sub 10 minute pace for that long - 6 of ~300 entrants last year ran sub 10 pace. i personally will not be close to that time and that's okay, i am just happy to be out there :) if it doesnt interest you there are plenty of other race types you can follow instead.
It’s a hot race that’s why it’s difficult. Host it in an indoor arena and you’ll have that number x5. Also competition is easier than marathon even if it’s a golden ticket event. You have only like 5-10 who can win it realistically. Again take an elite marathoner would wipe the field. Hell, even Kipchoge in his 50s could win.
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if that\'s easy do it wrote:
if it's that easy why not do one and just run at 9-10 minute pace and easily win? i am running my first ultra later this month - javelina 100k - a fairly "flat" trail course but it's still *very* difficult to run sub 10 minute pace for that long - 6 of ~300 entrants last year ran sub 10 pace. i personally will not be close to that time and that's okay, i am just happy to be out there :) if it doesnt interest you there are plenty of other race types you can follow instead.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said it was easy to do. I just wondered why it went from being calling walking/ pedestrianism to being called running.
I personally believe running success doesn’t translate into ultra success.
I’m absolutely sure there’s a learning curve that everyone that ventures into ultra has to deal with.
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If he raced UTMB wrote:
if that\'s easy do it wrote:
if it's that easy why not do one and just run at 9-10 minute pace and easily win? i am running my first ultra later this month - javelina 100k - a fairly "flat" trail course but it's still *very* difficult to run sub 10 minute pace for that long - 6 of ~300 entrants last year ran sub 10 pace. i personally will not be close to that time and that's okay, i am just happy to be out there :) if it doesnt interest you there are plenty of other race types you can follow instead.
It’s a hot race that’s why it’s difficult. Host it in an indoor arena and you’ll have that number x5. Also competition is easier than marathon even if it’s a golden ticket event. You have only like 5-10 who can win it realistically. Again take an elite marathoner would wipe the field. Hell, even Kipchoge in his 50s could win.
the golden ticket is the 100 miler im in the 100k, so it's "easier" & prob less competition from elites since it's not a golden ticket race. but i'm a mid packer so that's pretty irrelevant to me, I just like being out there as I've said :)
But yes, the weather is a reason ppl run slower - most ultras have some sort of unique feature (or multiple) that make it much more difficult than a flat, temperature controlled race (altitude, vert, heat, cold, terrain etc..)00 -
Pedestrianism wrote:
if that\'s easy do it wrote:
if it's that easy why not do one and just run at 9-10 minute pace and easily win? i am running my first ultra later this month - javelina 100k - a fairly "flat" trail course but it's still *very* difficult to run sub 10 minute pace for that long - 6 of ~300 entrants last year ran sub 10 pace. i personally will not be close to that time and that's okay, i am just happy to be out there :) if it doesnt interest you there are plenty of other race types you can follow instead.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said it was easy to do. I just wondered why it went from being calling walking/ pedestrianism to being called running.
I personally believe running success doesn’t translate into ultra success.
I’m absolutely sure there’s a learning curve that everyone that ventures into ultra has to deal with.
the honest answer is i don't think anyone cares nearly as much as the people who get mad about it do. the trail running community is very inclusive/supportive - it's mainly haters that get mad that it isn't "real running" who even make this a debate. i've never once heard it come up at a group run or a race.
literally nobody cares - we are just enjoying getting after it in the mountains and those who wish to join us will find a welcoming group of people who are fond of sharing our love for being active in the mountains. if it's not for you then that's fine - pay us no mind50 -
I do. Still get the buckle. My money. My choice.
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if that's easy do it wrote:
Pedestrianism wrote:
Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said it was easy to do. I just wondered why it went from being calling walking/ pedestrianism to being called running.
I personally believe running success doesn’t translate into ultra success.
I’m absolutely sure there’s a learning curve that everyone that ventures into ultra has to deal with.
the honest answer is i don't think anyone cares nearly as much as the people who get mad about it do. the trail running community is very inclusive/supportive - it's mainly haters that get mad that it isn't "real running" who even make this a debate. i've never once heard it come up at a group run or a race.
literally nobody cares - we are just enjoying getting after it in the mountains and those who wish to join us will find a welcoming group of people who are fond of sharing our love for being active in the mountains. if it's not for you then that's fine - pay us no mind
Sounds lovely, you are making me want to run an ultra now!
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running ultras wrote:
if that's easy do it wrote:
the honest answer is i don't think anyone cares nearly as much as the people who get mad about it do. the trail running community is very inclusive/supportive - it's mainly haters that get mad that it isn't "real running" who even make this a debate. i've never once heard it come up at a group run or a race.
literally nobody cares - we are just enjoying getting after it in the mountains and those who wish to join us will find a welcoming group of people who are fond of sharing our love for being active in the mountains. if it's not for you then that's fine - pay us no mind
Sounds lovely, you are making me want to run an ultra now!
im personally fond of the trail half marathon distance bc it's short enough you can actually race it, but long enough to be challenging being out there for 2-3 hours. ive never run more than 30k so this 100k might be a disaster but that's okay :)
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Pedestrianism wrote:
100 miles in 24 hours is 15 minute miles. That’s walking.
yes we are, walking is much more enjoyable, and you don't sweat as much. Here is a clip of walmsley walking through the 64 mile aid at states. the video is speeded up to make it look like he is running.
(1261) 2018 WS100 Jim Walmsley - YouTube
another of him walking an 18 mile training walk;
(1261) Jim Walmsley on Cal Street | 2017 WS 100 Training Camp | Steep Life Extra - YouTubeThis post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.00 -
Pedestrianism wrote:
100 miles in 24 hours is 15 minute miles. That’s walking.
What's your best time?
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