an overwhelming majority of people believe that trans women have an unfair advantage to cis women in sports. An overwhelming majority of people believe that trans women shouldn't be competing against or alongside cis women. Even most libs. I know because I am one, and my friends are libs too and we have this opinion.
an overwhelming majority of people believe that trans women have an unfair advantage to cis women in sports. An overwhelming majority of people believe that trans women shouldn't be competing against or alongside cis women. Even most libs. I know because I am one, and my friends are libs too and we have this opinion.
You don’t understand the argument, though.
I believe that trans women have an unfair advantage, but I don’t care about that. I care that a transwoman is a woman, so she should race against women. It’s not a fairness issue for me.
Transmen do not appear to have any unfair advantage over cis men. Are you saying that because of this, they should compete against men?
The “it’s unfair!” Argument is inconsistent because it applies only to one category and not the other. And as others have stated, unfair advantages exist in all sports.
The Lia Thomas story gives their transphobic agenda a leg to stand on. Obviously Lia Thomas doesn't belong in a women's swim competition. So because of that, they want to ban all transgender athletes everywhere. They blow it way out of proportion because of just a few examples.
Out of curiosity, since you think some trans women don't belong in women's competition . . . what is the line we draw? Where do trans women belong in the women's events, and where should they stay with the men?
World Athletics answered that question in detail. Their guidelines make sense. Every sporting association needs to decide if they want to do something similar. The World Athletics rule is fairly strict, you won’t be seeing any more transgender athletes in the women’s Olympics. But it avoids the blanket ban, which would discriminate against athletes who don’t have an unfair advantage.
Do you understand that there are adult trans women who have never gone through male puberty?
They won't be leading any race - women's or otherwise - in the home straight. So no one is much interested in your unicorns. WA is only banning those trans who have gone through puberty. Because they are male.
an overwhelming majority of people believe that trans women have an unfair advantage to cis women in sports. An overwhelming majority of people believe that trans women shouldn't be competing against or alongside cis women. Even most libs. I know because I am one, and my friends are libs too and we have this opinion.
You don’t understand the argument, though.
I believe that trans women have an unfair advantage, but I don’t care about that. I care that a transwoman is a woman, so she should race against women. It’s not a fairness issue for me.
Transmen do not appear to have any unfair advantage over cis men. Are you saying that because of this, they should compete against men?
The “it’s unfair!” Argument is inconsistent because it applies only to one category and not the other. And as others have stated, unfair advantages exist in all sports.
You obviously don't play sport. Sports competition is based on fairness or the result means nothing. Fairness - to those who don't play or don't understand sports, like you - does not mean equal ability. That is why we care about who wins. We want to see who is the best. We don't want to see heavyweights beating lightweights. Or adults beating kids. Or males beating females.
Do you understand that there are adult trans women who have never gone through male puberty?
So what? A human male who hasn't gone through male puberty of adolescence still isn't a human female, or equivalent to one.
The Italian castrati of yore didn't go through male puberty, either, because their testicles were all removed by the time they were 8 or 9. But that didn't turn them into girls or women. Being castrated at such an age turned the castrati into men known as eunuchs who stood out due to their unique singing voices and the fact that they were unusually tall even compared to other men.
The reason the castrati had such distinctive singing voices is because as they grew up over the course of their teens, they developed lungs, thoraxes and throats with the typically large size and enormous power of adult men, but they retained the vocal chords of little boys.
A common myth today is that all the physical features that give teenage and adult males massive advantages over females in nearly all sports are the result of the enormous amounts of testosterone produced by the male gonads, the testes, during and after male puberty of adolescence.
But this is not true.
Prior to puberty of adolescence, males outperform females in nearly all sports and in most specific sports-related acitivities (running, kicking, jumping, throwing, hitting with a bat or stick, punching, pushing, doing pull-ups, rope climbing).
Youth records for kids age 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 in sports such as track & field and swimming - as well as from programs like youth PE and the US President's physical fitness tests - going back many decades demonstrate this beyond doubt.
At age 11 and 12, some very strong and physically talented girls can outdo some boys of the same age in some sports, sports events or specific physical activities related to sports. But that's because at that age, girls usually are already well into puberty of adolescence and they've already gone through their major spurt in skeletal growth. By contrast, boys at 11 and 12 often haven't started puberty of adolescence yet, or are only in the early phases of it - and males undergo their major skeletal growth spurt at much later chronlogical ages than females do. But once they reach 13, most males will be outperforming the girls who could match or beat them for a brief window of time when they were 11 or 12.
As for the physical features that males develop during puberty of adolesence which cause the already-extant male advantage in sports to go from being observable and measurable but still relatively small prior to age 12-13 to being unmistakably, overwhelmingly obvious and really huge after that point - only some of those physical features are the result of the high levels of testes-produced testosterone that causes males to undergo what Ross Tucker and others describe as "androgenization" during and after adolescence.
Some features that give adult and adolescent males a big advantage over females in sports - such as a much narrower male-shaped pelvis and the male Q angle that are such boons in running and swimming etc; much larger and more powerful lungs; different and more efficient breathing mechanics and respiratory function; larger throat; taller height; greater bone density; stronger tendons that can exert and withstand far more force; muscles that have many more fibers that are also more densely packed - appear to be solely or mostly the result of male genetics rather than the massive amounts of the sex hormone testosterone that the male testes pump out during and after puberty of adolescence as is commonly thought.
This post was edited 9 minutes after it was posted.
Do you understand that there are adult trans women who have never gone through male puberty?
So what? A human male who hasn't gone through male puberty of adolescence still isn't a human female, or equivalent to one.
The Italian castrati of yore didn't go through male puberty, either, because their testicles were all removed by the time they were 8 or 9. But that didn't turn them into girls or women. Being castrated at such an age turned the castrati into men known as eunuchs who stood out due to their unique singing voices and the fact that they were unusually tall even compared to other men.
The reason the castrati had such distinctive singing voices is because as they grew up over the course of their teens, they developed lungs, thoraxes and throats with the typically large size and enormous power of adult men, but they retained the vocal chords of little boys.
A common myth today is that all the physical features that give teenage and adult males massive advantages over females in nearly all sports are the result of the enormous amounts of testosterone produced by the male gonads, the testes, during and after male puberty of adolescence.
But this is not true.
Prior to puberty of adolescence, males outperform females in nearly all sports and in most specific sports-related acitivities (running, kicking, jumping, throwing, hitting with a bat or stick, punching, pushing, doing pull-ups, rope climbing).
Youth records for kids age 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 in sports such as track & field and swimming - as well as from programs like youth PE and the US President's physical fitness tests - going back many decades demonstrate this beyond doubt.
At age 11 and 12, some very strong and physically talented girls can outdo some boys of the same age in some sports, sports events or specific physical activities related to sports. But that's because at that age, girls usually are already well into puberty of adolescence and they've already gone through their major spurt in skeletal growth. By contrast, boys at 11 and 12 often haven't started puberty of adolescence yet, or are only in the early phases of it - and males undergo their major skeletal growth spurt at much later chronlogical ages than females do. But once they reach 13, most males will be outperforming the girls who could match or beat them for a brief window of time when they were 11 or 12.
As for the physical features that males develop during puberty of adolesence which cause the already-extant male advantage in sports to go from being observable and measurable but still relatively small prior to age 12-13 to being unmistakably, overwhelmingly obvious and really huge after that point - only some of those physical features are the result of the high levels of testes-produced testosterone that causes males to undergo what Ross Tucker and others describe as "androgenization" during and after adolescence.
Some features that give adult and adolescent males a big advantage over females in sports - such as a much narrower male-shaped pelvis and the male Q angle that are such boons in running and swimming etc; much larger and more powerful lungs; different and more efficient breathing mechanics and respiratory function; larger throat; taller height; greater bone density; stronger tendons that can exert and withstand far more force; muscles that have many more fibers that are also more densely packed - appear to be solely or mostly the result of male genetics rather than the massive amounts of the sex hormone testosterone that the male testes pump out during and after puberty of adolescence as is commonly thought.
Interesting. We don't see the equivalent of the "castrati" racing the 800m - against either men or women.
The reason that an athlete would use a car in a foot race is solely to gain a competitive advantage.
The reason these trans male-to-female want to compete against women is because they want to be viewed as a woman. They don’t do it with the intent of gaining a competitive advantage.
A very clear difference in intent.
That said, they do have a biological advantage and I believe they should not compete in the same category as women.
Out of curiosity, since you think some trans women don't belong in women's competition . . . what is the line we draw? Where do trans women belong in the women's events, and where should they stay with the men?
World Athletics answered that question in detail. Their guidelines make sense. Every sporting association needs to decide if they want to do something similar. The World Athletics rule is fairly strict, you won’t be seeing any more transgender athletes in the women’s Olympics. But it avoids the blanket ban, which would discriminate against athletes who don’t have an unfair advantage.
That's way too complicated for most people here. The Republican slogan is "no male bodies in women's sports." When you add "if they have gone through male puberty" you are already adding seven extra words. And then, many people don't understand what those extra words mean. (They think it is about children.) So you rephrase it to "unless they started medical transition before puberty." But then, they don't understand what medical transition means, so you go back to where you were.
In today's public discourse, a simpler slogan wins. "Get Brexit Done" was a very effective campaign slogan for Tories because it was simple.
Another factor is that people are more likely to be driven by negative feelings like fear and anger than positive feelings like joy and happiness. Just look at how the prochoice crowd has been energized since Roe v. Wade was overturned. It is harder to mobilize evangelical voters now because they are satisfied with Dobbs.
The rightwing media runs stories about trans athlete winning this and that title, no matter how small the title is, and no matter how old the story is, because it is effective in stoking people's fear. A story about how a trans girl is loved and supported by her teammates does not leave any lasting impression on the readers.
The Republican message is simple and based on people's fear. That's why they have already won this propaganda war.
Do you understand that there are adult trans women who have never gone through male puberty?
So what? A human male who hasn't gone through male puberty of adolescence still isn't a human female, or equivalent to one.
The Italian castrati of yore didn't go through male puberty, either, because their testicles were all removed by the time they were 8 or 9. But that didn't turn them into girls or women. Being castrated at such an age turned the castrati into men known as eunuchs who stood out due to their unique singing voices and the fact that they were unusually tall even compared to other men.
The reason the castrati had such distinctive singing voices is because as they grew up over the course of their teens, they developed lungs, thoraxes and throats with the typically large size and enormous power of adult men, but they retained the vocal chords of little boys.
A common myth today is that all the physical features that give teenage and adult males massive advantages over females in nearly all sports are the result of the enormous amounts of testosterone produced by the male gonads, the testes, during and after male puberty of adolescence.
But this is not true.
Prior to puberty of adolescence, males outperform females in nearly all sports and in most specific sports-related acitivities (running, kicking, jumping, throwing, hitting with a bat or stick, punching, pushing, doing pull-ups, rope climbing).
Youth records for kids age 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 in sports such as track & field and swimming - as well as from programs like youth PE and the US President's physical fitness tests - going back many decades demonstrate this beyond doubt.
At age 11 and 12, some very strong and physically talented girls can outdo some boys of the same age in some sports, sports events or specific physical activities related to sports. But that's because at that age, girls usually are already well into puberty of adolescence and they've already gone through their major spurt in skeletal growth. By contrast, boys at 11 and 12 often haven't started puberty of adolescence yet, or are only in the early phases of it - and males undergo their major skeletal growth spurt at much later chronlogical ages than females do. But once they reach 13, most males will be outperforming the girls who could match or beat them for a brief window of time when they were 11 or 12.
As for the physical features that males develop during puberty of adolesence which cause the already-extant male advantage in sports to go from being observable and measurable but still relatively small prior to age 12-13 to being unmistakably, overwhelmingly obvious and really huge after that point - only some of those physical features are the result of the high levels of testes-produced testosterone that causes males to undergo what Ross Tucker and others describe as "androgenization" during and after adolescence.
Some features that give adult and adolescent males a big advantage over females in sports - such as a much narrower male-shaped pelvis and the male Q angle that are such boons in running and swimming etc; much larger and more powerful lungs; different and more efficient breathing mechanics and respiratory function; larger throat; taller height; greater bone density; stronger tendons that can exert and withstand far more force; muscles that have many more fibers that are also more densely packed - appear to be solely or mostly the result of male genetics rather than the massive amounts of the sex hormone testosterone that the male testes pump out during and after puberty of adolescence as is commonly thought.
Where are the peer reviewed articles to back this up? That's the standard you demand from other posters.
Rojo, people who accuse you of being “anti-trans” merely because you oppose transgender women competing in female sports are wrong. They are no different from people who accuse someone of “racism” merely for criticizing a person who happens to be black. To paraphrase Kipling, don’t let the “truth you’ve spoken [be] twisted by knaves to create a trap for fools.”
Rojo, people who accuse you of being “anti-trans” merely because you oppose transgender women competing in female sports are wrong. They are no different from people who accuse someone of “racism” merely for criticizing a person who happens to be black. To paraphrase Kipling, don’t let the “truth you’ve spoken [be] twisted by knaves to create a trap for fools.”
You are missing the point. It is not that rojo is against trans women in women's sports. Many people are against that without being anti-trans.
The problem is that he starts so many transgender related threads one after another for the purpose of generating more clicks, knowing that threads like this attract posters who insult, demean and dehumanize trans people for issues way beyond competitive sports. He is allowing this to happen because it is good for his business.
If he started numerous threads about crimes in certain cities for the purpose of generating more clicks, then he would be racist even if he didn't write anything racist on those threads.
Your point is well taken, Hobby Jogger. Rojo may indeed be motivated by financial concerns as well as by a legitimate opposition to transgender women in female sports. Most of us have mixed motives for anything that we do in life.
an overwhelming majority of people believe that trans women have an unfair advantage to cis women in sports. An overwhelming majority of people believe that trans women shouldn't be competing against or alongside cis women. Even most libs. I know because I am one, and my friends are libs too and we have this opinion.
You don’t understand the argument, though.
I believe that trans women have an unfair advantage, but I don’t care about that. I care that a transwoman is a woman, so she should race against women. It’s not a fairness issue for me.
Transmen do not appear to have any unfair advantage over cis men. Are you saying that because of this, they should compete against men?
The “it’s unfair!” Argument is inconsistent because it applies only to one category and not the other. And as others have stated, unfair advantages exist in all sports.
You are correct in noting that people aren't overly concerned about people who have unfair competitive disadvantages. (Kinda like you aren't concerned about women who are disadvantaged against trans women, but I digress!) In the opening metaphor, if trans women are driving cars against real women who are running, trans men are choosing to run in concrete shoes against real men wearing regular shoes, or something like that. The race director would probably not disqualify a runner for wearing concrete shoes -- it's that entrant's choice to put themselves at a disadvantage. Though you're actually right and we probably should be concerned about this kind of thing: at least in some sports, trans men are potentially put in real danger of injury if they try to compete against real men, so we should ban trans men from men's competition for their safety.
Dumb debate. A transwoman's (man's) desire for others to participate in their delusion does not trump the right of women to fair competition and opportunities given through sport. The conversation does not need to go any further than that.
so we should ban trans men from men's competition for their safety.
Sure, just like we used to ban women from running marathoners for the safety of their uteri? I guess society was wrong about that one, just as anyone claiming that women’s sports would end if trans athletes are allowed to compete would be wrong today.
so we should ban trans men from men's competition for their safety.
Sure, just like we used to ban women from running marathoners for the safety of their uteri? I guess society was wrong about that one, just as anyone claiming that women’s sports would end if trans athletes are allowed to compete would be wrong today.
I’m certain from reading the full post you’re replying to that noncontact sports like running aren’t the kind of sport at issue when it comes to trans men’s safety, but I also feel like you know that too. I hope you also recognize that comparing “you can’t run at all” to “you can run this exact distance, just not with these people” aren’t really comparable.
As to how the future will look back on us, I’ll take that bet and say the future will see this issue of gender confusion as trend as signs the left was unhinged. Hopefully they’re looking back from a still extent USA as opposed to what some historians have pointed out, which is that blurring gender lines is a continual theme found in societies and nations in their final decline.
The reason that an athlete would use a car in a foot race is solely to gain a competitive advantage.
The reason these trans male-to-female want to compete against women is because they want to be viewed as a woman. They don’t do it with the intent of gaining a competitive advantage.
A very clear difference in intent.
That said, they do have a biological advantage and I believe they should not compete in the same category as women.
The car thing is stupid, not epic.
Intention is irrelevant. The issue is simply unfair advantage.