50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Boy old fat and stoopid that was a lot and I actually read it all. You are kind of a character, and I say that as a compliment. I trained for marathons as a young man and in my mid-50s. Both times I attacked the event seriously and built my mileage up over a period of time. In regards to walking, any load bearing exercise is going to compromise your hard days. So whether you are training for a 5k or a marathon you have to manipulate both your volume and intensity. Certainly as dhaaga pointed out you need to improve the quality of the long runs. I would advise you take a longer journey approach rather than focusing on the destination. I am certain that you can improve quite a bit as you return to fitness. As they say “patience is a virtue” in distance running it is a necessity. Another book I mentioned last week that is a good reference for using cross training for your easy days is “Run Less, Run Faster.” This will be especially helpful in another decade. So think long term my friend.

Igy

Old Fat n Stoopid wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I suppose since I have run most weeks since about 1965 this means I am capable of decent racing when I focus. Interesting to do the accounting.

2018 67 30:39 (7 weeks post chemo; hardest race and slowest)

2018 68 29:04 (10 days post radiation)

2019 68 26:08 (7 months post treatment)

Igy

That is amazing. I might be able you match your 1st 2018 time, but not the other 2. You have almost 2 decades on me, and all the stress, uncertainty and everything else of dealing with the toxins and the treatment schedule, just unbelievable. Your other times are not too shabby either.

Thank old fat m stopped. Working at it several days a week. Doing my best in a reasonable manner; I think. ? You will improve a bunch if you stick to your plan and maintain a reasonable loading of stress. Another resource on the science of endurance training is “Daniels’ Running Formula.” I do think right now as you are still building general fitness, that you judiciously add stress. No sense going backwards. So my advice is more general than specific.

Igy

^Thanks old fat n stoopid......auto correct strikes again.....

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I suppose since I have run most weeks since about 1965 this means I am capable of decent racing when I focus. Interesting to do the accounting.

1970 19 14:04 3 mile

1974 23 13:51 3 mile

1977-2001 a couple races here and there on the fly; getting fat need to get in shape>

2002 52 19:22 5k (rest of the marks 5k)

2006 55 18:02 (top M55 track)

2011 60 21:13

2016 65 25:07

2017 67 22:31 (before diagnosis)

2018 67 30:39 (7 weeks post chemo; hardest race and slowest)

2018 68 29:04 (10 days post radiation)

2019 68 26:08 (7 months post treatment)

Igy

And at age 56 you had an 18:16 in 2007 at Carlsbad chasing Henry Rono while I was a couple of seconds behind you ;>)

Old Fat n Stoopid wrote:

... am I fooling myself in thinking I can do the marathon in under 5 hours? The forums I have been on are all very positive, but they are not made up of serious runners. I need some hard truth.

I completed more than a few marathons in my 20s and 30s on less training than you've already done, and you still have seven more weeks. I always had to walk-run-walk the final 6 or 8 miles. Still finished in under 5 hours in all of those marathons, sometimes under 4:00.

But there's a big difference between age 26 and 56! Maybe including walking sooner in the race will help -- I've never tried that. I would always run until I couldn't.

At age 60 now, and running more than you, I don't think I could break 5:00. My only run so far this week was just 6 miles, and I struggled to run 11-minute miles. Hard to believe that less than two years ago, I ran a 3:07 marathon.

Anyway, good luck. Keep posting, will be interesting to follow your progress.

Curious Curt wrote:

Curious: What happened between ages 20 & 25? Usually, runners peak out in their mid to late-20s for most distances

I had to laugh at that. Those were the years I was starting a high-stress career, buying (and restoring) my first houses, getting married, having kids ... always confident that new PRs were gonna happen, but never able to actually train consistently enough to make it so. My last PRs were all set at age 23 -- 5K, 10K, 10-mile, 20K, marathon.

A week or two ago, I posted my lifetime marathon list. There's a huge variation, year to year, and it gives a sense of how much (or little) time I could devote to training through the decades.

Looking at age-grading, my best marathon was my last. "Equivalent" to 2:36 -- four minutes better than my age 23 PR. Amazingly, that last marathon, at age 58 in 2017, was only the second time I was under 3:10 since 1983, despite completing marathons almost every year from 1981 to 2003.

Summer Update: ran my focus race last Saturday - the Grand Traverse (41ish miles Crested Butte to Aspen over two 12k passes on a mixture of jeep roads/trails). Weather was fantastic other than a bit too hot for my taste on the final descent into Aspen.

Result: 8:12; 53rd/265 OA; 2nd AG. Pleased but still can do better.

As follows:

2016: 8:03; 1st AG; 7:20 Aspen Mt split***. Training: average quality/volume. Weather: rained significantly during the week prior, resulting in generally fast/firm trails with occasional muddy spots, generally cool temps, with a half-hour light-duty storm going over Star Pass. Strategy: conservative start as it was my first rodeo - saving energy for the final 5-6M descent, and smoked it passing 8-10 on the way down. Felt surprisingly fresh at finish.

2017: 8:06; 1st AG; 7:17 Aspen Mt split***. Training: average quality/above average volume. Weather: all clear, medium temps, drier trails. Strategy: energetic start with a sub-8 hr goal, went well through perhaps the marathon mark when stride mechanics began faltering due to a slight ankle tweak I had sustained skiing earlier in the year. Excited to hit the Aspen mt split 3 min up, which theoretically put me in the driver's seat for sub-8, but knew it wasn't going to happen on that descent with my mechanics out of whack. Wiped at finish.

2018: 8:27; 1st AG; 7:37ish Aspen Mt split***. Training: average quality/below average volume. Weather: all clear, medium temps, drier trails. Strategy: conservative start knowing training volume was sub-par due to work projects, final result unsurprising. Wiped at finish.

2019: 8:12; 2nd AG; 7:17 Aspen Mt split***. Training: average quality/above average volume. Weather: all clear, medium temps until the descent (when it seemed noticably hotter), drier trails. Strategy: energetic start with a sub-8 hr goal, went well until almost Aspen Mt when started losing steam, but still managed to match the PR split there. Knew the descent was going to be brutal and it was. Quads were already trashed and the descent trail condition was noticably worse this year than previous - clearly from excessive MTN bike use (deep ruts, washboard, downright dangerous at points). Didn't dare blitz for fear of broken ankles or similar, yet still managed to pass 2-3 others while only being passed but 1. Final result - at least matched the Aspen Mt PR split. Wiped at finish.

Other interesting notes:

✓The website lists it as 40.7M w 6,500' vert; however, at the finish this year the RD/announcer referred to "nearly 42M w 7800' vert". Hmmm ?.

✓At Aspen Mt aid station in '16 they said "only 3 miles to go", then the next 2 years the sign said "only 5 to go", and this year it said "only 6 to go". Hmmm ?.

✓ Cam Smith, a 23yo from Gunnison destroyed the CR by 20 min in his first go this year - notching an incredible 5:38. Wow, smoking!

✓ Max King - 2:14 marathoner, 8:30 steepler, one-time World Mountain Running Association Champion, and one-time World 100K (roads) Champion, only managed 3rd in 6:23 in his first go.

✓ Glenn the AG winner this year ripped a 7:45, quite impressive. He went by on the CB side (climb) and was gone. We shared a row on the shuttle bus ride back to CB (3+ hours) - cool guy from T-Ride trying to get in Hardrock and/or UTMB.

***Aspen Mt split - I don't Strava, GPS watch, or any of that tech stuff so the only split I know on this course is the final aid station, which is either 3, 5, or 6 miles from the finish (LOL).

Charlie wrote:

Cavorty

A 19:20/4800 meters is too fast for my base phase.

My Current fitness guesstimates:

5k is 6:26 1:36/400

10k is 6:42 1:40/400

Fastest I would venture in base for 5000 is 1:41/400 more or less a CV workout

19:20 for 4800 is 6:26 1:36.6/400

1:36 vs 1:41 or about 5 seconds per 400 FASTER than I want to do at this point in my buildup.

How about you give me a 60 second head start;)

The 19:20 was 2 years ago though.

I did do 16x400m with 100m jog in around 94 (just started and stopped watch on start/finish of each 400m and divided total by 16)this spring.

So on that basis I should have been in about 19:40 shape, but did the Rhody Run in 21:14

I've got no idea what I could do for 5k at the moment, as the nearest I've got to something like that was the 6 miles including 3 miles at 6:50 (about 21:12 pace).

Since the end of June when the ankle got too sore, to actually do planned training, I've only been doing mostly 3-4 mile runs, other than a few long jogs with the dog. Starting to push it up to a short 5 now. The best I've had lately is 4 miles that averaged 7:04 with the last two in 6:55, 6:45.

Until I was semi-injured I was trying to stay at a CV pace for 1000m reps, doing 6 in around 4:04 with 2 min recovery.

I found that although I benefit from a base phase, I race very badly during it. I've kind of worked out that I'm basically a slow sprinter (lots of fast twitch) with a big Vo2. Genetically, I've got good lactate clearance, so high volume reps tend to flatter me.

No reps since June though. Just simple steady runs.

I'd say in two weeks time I'd maybe able to see if I could hang with your LT or Cape Mountain run.

Allen1959 wrote:

I completed more than a few marathons in my 20s and 30s on less training than you've already done, and you still have seven more weeks. I always had to walk-run-walk the final 6 or 8 miles. Still finished in under 5 hours in all of those marathons, sometimes under 4:00.

But there's a big difference between age 26 and 56! Maybe including walking sooner in the race will help -- I've never tried that. I would always run until I couldn't.

At age 60 now, and running more than you, I don't think I could break 5:00. My only run so far this week was just 6 miles, and I struggled to run 11-minute miles. Hard to believe that less than two years ago, I ran a 3:07 marathon.

Anyway, good luck. Keep posting, will be interesting to follow your progress.

For some yes...but for others no. There are some runners over 50 who can train like they're 25 yrs old and run times that beat most HS times. Others plod along dealing with chronic age-related injuries and in many cases just try to finish a race. Still others had to throw away their running shoes and take up cycling, XC skiing or some other form of low-impact sports.

Running over 50 can be brutal for some but a pot of gold for others

old guy II wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I suppose since I have run most weeks since about 1965 this means I am capable of decent racing when I focus. Interesting to do the accounting.

1970 19 14:04 3 mile

1974 23 13:51 3 mile

1977-2001 a couple races here and there on the fly; getting fat need to get in shape>

2002 52 19:22 5k (rest of the marks 5k)

2006 55 18:02 (top M55 track)

2011 60 21:13

2016 65 25:07

2017 67 22:31 (before diagnosis)

2018 67 30:39 (7 weeks post chemo; hardest race and slowest)

2018 68 29:04 (10 days post radiation)

2019 68 26:08 (7 months post treatment)

Igy

And at age 56 you had an 18:16 in 2007 at Carlsbad chasing Henry Rono while I was a couple of seconds behind you ;>)

Thanks old guy II. Had a good run there. Can I hold your water now? I really plan to be at Carlsbad this year no matter what. We’ll get that beer!

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Thanks old guy II. Had a good run there. Can I hold your water now? I really plan to be at Carlsbad this year no matter what. We’ll get that beer!

You're welcome. There will be a lot of water under the bridge between now and next March/April. Hopefully we both will be fast by then, but at least we will have escaped the youngsters in the 65-69s. If you weren't aware, Meb Keflezihgi bought the Carlsbad 5k before last year's race and did a much better job of running it than Rock 'n Roll did for the prior years. It was back to being much more of a runners' race than an after thought for a marathon organization.

old guy II,

I heard that on Meb. On Carlsbad I will be five months away from 70, but 70-74 for Senior Games competitions. Hopefully I can be back at least another 10% stronger than I am now. I can do longer runs before I need a rest, so strength coming back.

Igy

Pete pointed out that "Training with an altered stride risks hard-wiring neural messaging for a less-efficient stride" which is of course true. The question is whether most people alter their stride more when running in a VF than they do in a "normal" racing flat. I just don't know. Really interesting question, though!!

For me, my sense is that my stride has a tendency to become "lazy", with a less strong push-off than I could & should have. I think this is what caused my first-ever mid-workout hamstring seize-up early last week (still recovering). The seize-up happened while wearing Saucony A8s, as I mentioned before. I think those are great racing flats, so no complaints there. But I wonder whether perhaps my stride would've changed less had I worn VFs.

The real solution, of course, is to focus more on stride mechanics during every-day easy runs. I'm trying to do that now, and the effect is striking. I was back to an 11 mile easy run post-hamstring problem on Wednesday. On Thursday I tried to focus on a good ankle push-off and hamstring follow-through, and the hamstring seized up after just a couple of miles! So now I'm back down to 3-4M per day, even though I could easily run 10+M with my "normal", relaxed stride.

I picked up some VFs used on eBay and look forward to comparing how they feel when I'm actively working on ankle push-off, compared to the Saucony's.

amkelley, I have not looked for Lunar Tempos, but in general I have had good luck buying new or lightly worn shoes on eBay. Only bid on shoes where the seller has included a picture of the outsoles, and then only bid if it looks barely worn. These come up often enough for most shoes that with some patience you can keep yourself in discontinued shoes for quite a while.

I think it is a question of degree. We are all in consensus that swapping around shoes to somewhat use different patterns is a positive in avoiding overuse injuries.

It's when that pattern that becomes so altered that it is less efficient in a racing situation, or causes an injury, that you have a problem. That is probably a very individual function of biomechanics.

Personally, I didn't find I had to consciously alter stride in the VF for them to be effective, nor did I get the problems that Pete reported.

I think from a practical standpoint, if you have to radically alter your stride, and you're not going to wear them for all racing or training, then it doesn't work.

Of course, beyond that, whether they are an unfair advantage or not is a interesting philosophical question. I believe, in the sense that they are universally available, and don't obtain their positive effects through something that is harmful to health (unlike most PEDS), there is an argument that they are fair game. On the other hand, there is a purity to running in that it never used to be an 'equipment' sport - I come from a era of road-racing in tennis shoes, and track racing in spikes that weren't screw in and had to be sharpen - and I'd hate to see an 'arms race' of increasingly technical and expensive shoes.

WHOA, lots of good chatter and insight here this past week.

AMKelley, like Maurits, I too have had great success with staying in discontinued shoes for a few extra years by buying (and stockpiling) via EBay.

RE age degradation, I’ve not missed a single year of racing in 50 years so can track said slow down pretty readily. Am entered in both a track 5000 and a 10,000 in 4 weeks time (will pick one or the other shortly prior) and at age 63.5 will be delighted with 23:59 or 51:30...as a 24 year old, went 14:37 and 30:53...that’s what happens in 39 years...at least that’s how dramatically I’ve devolved...but am SO incredibly thankful to still be in motion...albeit much more pedestrian.

Got in another 30 mile week and hit a couple of benchmarks along the way...Thursday made 250 days in my current knuckleheaded streak and Saturday made 900 miles year to date...that 900th felt really good as it was the final mile of a tempo run on the track and timed at 7:19...which nowadays feels like 5:20 used to feel... not ‘all out’, instead, brisk and exhilarating...the kind of sensation that keeps you coming back for more.

I love how goal oriented, insightful, accomplished, supportive all you geezers are on this thread...many thanks for your continued inspiration. Hope to see you at the races.

Your pal,

MF

Nine weeks post calf heart attack and I am on the verge of being completely back (knock on wood). I have continued the walk/jog routine with gradually increasing volume. Today’s session was the best yet with 1’/5’ + 1’/10’ + 1’/12’ + 1’/15’. Pace is good and endurance is returning. The hope is to do 2x(1’/20’) on Tuesday then a 30’ CR on Thursday. I am continuing the ice/heat/massage therapy and have reintroduced some body weight exercises. Life is good.

Best to most.

it's funny you mentioned "Breaking Away" as a favorite sports movie -- i loved that one. The scene in which the young cyclist is so excited about Italian superstars coming to town for a big race ("the Italians are coming!") and IIRC his friends don't really care came to mind for me a few years ago when Molly Huddle showed up for .us12k in Alexandria VA -- i told my students with great excitement that a superstart would be in our midst that weekend and..........nothing. I guess running famous is not the same as generally famous

fun week until I got sick:

M 3:15

Tu 1:20

W 2:10 double

Th 1:35

F 55:00 and came out of yoga class feeling suddenly sinus-y/congested/sore throat/chills. maybe yoga is bad after all

Sa 35:00

Su half-marathon in 1:37:16, ten minutes slower than same race last year

Would have bailed on the race, but I paid for it, and my wife was willing to drive me to start, and finish of this point-to-point is across the street from home, so I figured if I'm running anyway why not do it with 2000 friends?

checked the time every two miles, and progressed from 17:03 to 16:09, 15:08, 14:41, 13:33, 13:38, More or less last 5 miles at or close to intended race pace. I've taken that approach before when nursing injury -- not as satisfying as actually running a goal time, but more fun to move up throughout than to skip it, so I'm glad I went.

have a great week and Beat Philadelphia!

Dave

Kudos to you dhaaga for still giving it a shot, and a half marathon at that. Next week I will jump into a two mile race, in the meantime building my volume of running and cross training (37 Igy miles). I am back on the spin bike after the CT scan showing abdominal scar tissue reduction. Needless worry on my part.

Monday: 5 miles in foothills with 4 x 200m hill @ interval pace

Tuesday: AM- 45:00 spin bike; core exercises and 2 sets free weights; PM- 1,000m swim

Wednesday: On the asphalt Greenbelt 2 miles easy; 3 x mile tempo @ 9:12, 9:08, 8:45 / 1:00 rest; mile easy

Thursday: same as Tuesday

Friday: 4 miles easy/walk

Saturday: 7 miles in foothills easy

Igy