50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Mike Lundgren wrote:

PTF, we have an older AD, and I don't have any idea of the feel/workings of the new ones, but would like to check them out. Ours has enough years on it that getting replacement bearings is very hard.

Fitness wise, I use it only when I cannot run, so just to maintain my CV fitness (heart/lungs) but don't think it helps the legs too much for running. We bought ours in the days before a good, home, quality ARC Trainer or eliptical was practical. It's too easy to jump on it and read and/or watch TV, but you have me thinking about checking out a new one or an elliptical soon. Do wish I could have a machine that gives me something greater than the 60 rpm's I go at, since my running is 180 steps/min.

Mike...the new ones are really nice...although they have the same cadence issue...maybe even more so. Although I think 60 rpm's on an AD compares to 90 steps per min (counting the times the same foot hits in a minute) for running. Put another way...if the AD says 60 rpm...it's equivalent to 120 foot strikes a minute...if that makes sense. Nevertheless, it's still slow comparatively and it's impossible to hold much over 60 rpm for very long. It might work to bounce back and forth between the AD and a spin bike. You could work on cadence on the spin bike.

But I think you are probably right that it doesn't help the legs much for running...which is kind of a bummer because it's such a total body workout.

By the way...here's the new AD that is so nice:

Today's training session- indoors on 200M track- pouring rain today.

10 minute warm-up

5X1000M @ 3:49; 3:56; 3:56; 3:57; 3:59

10 minute cool down

Probably should've done the splits in inverse order.

Broke out of Zone 2 today - a bit like escaping the Phantom Zone in Superman. Had a couple of days off after a crappy 4 miles a couple of days ago. Did 4 miles at 7:02 average - 7:17, 7:18; 6:55; 6:46.

Interesting that HR never went over 142, average 132, but it did get me into Garmin Zone 3!

It felt quite hard, but I think I'd have got out another mile at 6:45, which would give me a 35:00 for 5 miles. Age graded would be 27:30. It's not exactly flying, but I guess that 27:30 in cold blood, including the first mile as a warm-up wouldn't have been terrible.

I can't imagine running hard enough to get HR up to 160s, but it may be that it's still the adaptions to stride caused by injuries that are the limitation.

The Garmin is very impressed, now forecasting a 17:22 5k - I'd be thrilled to get within 2 minutes, and pretty happy to get within 3 minutes.

It predicts a better marathon than I ran when I was 37!

Still, good to be generating something nearer a decent pace after being stuck around 7:15 area for the hard 4 mile runs, so this was a big jump.

Now all I have to do is wake up tomorrow morning without having set back any injuries.

Sand HILLLLLLssssss up and down no impact no injury?

https://youtu.be/OxEI5UTD3rI

same place lat roller downhill shaky video

https://youtu.be/4RF9UQxz-9w

Charlie...wow...what a beautiful spot. Not sure I've ever seen anything quite like it.

Lots of it on the Oregon Coast near Florence. We have a property about a mile inland, and have miles of dunes behind us.

There are places here where you can be a half mile from a road, and it looks like you are in the middle of nowhere...

I'm envious. It's absolutely beautiful. Lots of beautiful sandy spots here on Cape Cod...but none of it is groomed like that...or has the same consistency to the sand. Very nice.

PTF your post got me to wondering about sand maintenance. One thing I am sure of is sand is the only reason I am running 30mpw with no aches or pains . Elasticity slowly fades with age which makes impact forces so damaging.

This week I did a 3 mile tempo on asphalt at 80 percent of mhr just under 7 pace. Beat the heck out of me and I was not going that hard. Yesterday I did 40 minutes at 80 percent mhr in the sand so twice as long time wise and it just left me tired but not hurting. Hard to argue with this. Today I slogged along for 40 minutes in my sand . Started feeling tired finished feeling refreshed . That is what I want out of running. If I woke up tomorrow and found myself sandless I would figure out a way to get the sand back under my running. You have the sand you just need to groom it so that is possible. I think you just need convincing as to how much a difference it makes.

Here is a farming type machine that looks pretty good:

https://youtu.be/cy1b3XJ5szc?t=77

Hey Charlie...so in other words...all I need is $39,000 to buy a beach cleaner...a place to store it...and permission from the Cape Cod towns to rake miles of public beaches with an unlicensed machine...and I'm all set. Hee hee...meant kiddingly.

But yeah...I do not believe I have a practical solution...except...if I monitor the low tides...I may be able to plan out some beach runs on a recurring basis. Some of the local beaches are much more runnable during low tide. It takes some planning though and I would only be able to do it now and then. In the meantime, I'm still keeping my eye out for a nice patch of sand. Even if's only 100 meters or so, I'd be willing to jog back and forth.

I no longer need much convincing as to how much of a difference low impact running makes. You should know that since reading your posts on this topic...I have made a concerted effort to apply your principles. I've driven all over the place testing out sandy spots to run. It's been frustrating because I have had so many failed experiments. I've also tried trails, grass, athletic turf etc in order to get a similar effect...and even though I've yet to find anything resembling what you have...I do notice the difference it makes to run on surfaces that lower the impact.

You are absolutely correct that the ability to handle impact forces leaves you as you age. And to be honest...it took me a long to understand that this was what was happening to me as I aged...and why road runs were becoming such a slog. Had it not been for your posts, I'm not sure I would have understood. I never felt the impact from road runs until I was in my late 50's. But now that I'm 63, I really notice it.

Currently, I do a good amount on a turf football field. At least it's much better than the roads. Thanks for all the good suggestions.

Funny, I'd never even thought about negatives from a lot of training being on roads. From when I started 45+ years ago, I've always run a high proportion of my miles on road. A lot of the time, I wouldn't go until after work at about 6 pm - I'm a terrible early morning runner - so would be on roads to get the lights. I'd say in winter, until we started track sessions, other than x-country races, all my mileage would be on road, including hammering road 7-10 miles on the road in club Tuesday and Thursday night runs.

I still run most of my non-track sessions on road, other than I've tried to switch my long run to trails because I just go too hard on the roads. Was almost on the beach in Florence today - went from Driftwood Shores parking lot - and ran 4 miles on the road. Attempted 4 easy/steady, but ended up with 7:57; 7:36; 7:28; 7:10. Oh well! At least the Garmin tells me I'll be recovered in 16 hours, so I guess not too hard.

Generally alternate between Kinvara and some kind of Mizuna racer (not a shoe maven) and will occasionally go to Nike light weight racers for something like 16 x 1 min hard, 1 min jog on road.

I've had a share of injuries, but all imbalance type rather than impact. I'm guessing a couple of factors. One is the years, and years of training on roads, and the other is maybe having more of a speed/track background, I've tended towards a style that doesn't impact too hard.

I do have an occasional run on the beach here as a treat for a dog or two. Did 90 min from one of the state parks to the beach-up the beach to another state park and back a couple of weekends back.

I haven't been able to run on the roads at all for over the last several years. Things really changed at around 55 or so (60 now). It's all dirt roads or trails and grassy areas these days.

Decades of wear & tear, accumulated acute injuries progressing to chronic (and onset OA) and a slowing metabolism that has allowed extra weight have all been factors. Plus the science tells us that the shock-absorbing capacity of our joints diminishes as we age leading to a susceptibility of lower-extremity injuries (for most anyway).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12840638

Has anyone here had experience running a 'handicap' race?

I have been running consistently for 46+ years and racing for more than 30 of them (certainly 100s of races), but have never run a handicap race.

Here's the story, I think am pretty good shape (for me at least). Had a decent 5k three weeks ago - age graded to 80+%-, then had a so-so run at the USATF national mile last Friday (grrr). I am feeling pretty fit and don't want to 'waste' what acquired speed I may have gained over the past few months before transitioning to XC runs this fall .

Anyway, I entered the 44th running of 5k race in Hillsdale, Michigan to be held next Monday morning. Crazy 1970s entry fee of $10. (We are staying at an air B&B in town the night before - heck it is only $50 a night with a late late check out - what a country!)

The race provides a handicap to various age groups :30 15-19 , :00 19-35, :30 35-40, up to a whooping 7:00 for 60-65 (M) and so on.

I think it will be sort of like a solo time trial (once I hopefully reel in the folks with the 9:00+ headstart),keep pushing then and don't look back until I am done.

Also trying to taper just a touch . For me it harder to run easy than to run too much or too hard. - I logged 66 miles over the last seven days and am planning on just doing an easy 4 + 4 on Saturday and Sunday.

Whatever happens it will be different for sure and hopefully fun.

Advice, experience, or comments are welcome. Thanks

I have done a few handicaps - we always used to have a 2 1/2 mile Boxing Day Handicap for our club - but I've also done a ton of road relays, including the English Southern and National, which had 6 legs of around 5k alternating with 6 legs of around 10k. The road relays - if you are running later legs - are very similar, pretty much a solo time trial.

With no one to key off, the temptation is to go out too fast, whereas you would obviously normally want to be cruising to half way in a 5k. I'd say use a heart-monitor or Garmin to control pace for the first half (instead of tearing after the 9 minute), then let it rip the second half.

Re: Handicap race

"With no one to key off, the temptation is to go out too fast, whereas you would obviously normally want to be cruising to half way in a 5k. I'd say use a heart-monitor or Garmin to control pace for the first half (instead of tearing after the 9 minute), then let it rip the second half."

Good advice, Thanks Cavorty.

I printed a course map and know where the mile marks are and generally have a decent sense of pace, but you are correct not going out too hard will be a challenge.

PTF wrote:

I'm envious. It's absolutely beautiful. Lots of beautiful sandy spots here on Cape Cod...but none of it is groomed like that...or has the same consistency to the sand. Very nice.

Have you tried the Sandy Neck trails?

Ran just one handicap race, and it's a telling statement of me. Knowing I had "time" to kill, I am shooting the breeze with a competitor when it's my time to start and it did realize it, and so lost time. Would have lost even more time if it hadn't been for the RD, who knew me and told me to get going! Talk about wanting to make up for lost time! Never did feel like I had a good race that day, but thank goodness it was a 15 km (if memory serves me, and not sure it does, so many years ago), and not just 5 km.

Point is, be READY to race! :) :)

Hello fellow 50+ers! I stop by this thread every couple weeks to lurk, as I like seeing how things are going with my post-50 peers, and this morning I saw that a couple of you had discovered my posted training log on PodiumRunner.com. I'll address a couple of the issues I saw raised in a second, but first I want to say that the best part of getting back into training/racing shape is simply reengaging with the running community.

I've been coaching and writing about running during my 2-1/2 year absence as a running competitor, but I haven't really felt like a runner. And I'm sure many of my Cal Coast clubmates think I've finally made good on my constant threats to "quit forever" in response to one of my many nasty lingering injuries--there was the PF for 3-1/2 years in my 40s, the Achilles insertion injury for 6 years from my late 40s to mid-50s, the tendon sheath injury that put me out for most of a year, etc. blah blah blah ... you ALL know what I'm talking about, as these injuries are part of becoming an aging runner. But now, after solid training for almost 4 months, I finally feel like a runner again--and walk like one, too, shuffling like a man with his shoelaces tied together as post-run stiffness limits my range of motion for all movement that isn't post-warm-up running.

I did the PodiumRunner log for a few reasons:

ONE, my editor, Jonathan Beverly, asked me, too, because he thought the site needed a masters log to go along with the logs of the younger runners it posts.

TWO, I wanted to dispel the odd assumption (seriously, I've heard this from numerous runners over the years) that I'm somehow just a genetic freak who barely has to train and is unburdened by the daily trials and tribulations that face most masters--if you read the blog, you'll see that I train a lot (10 times a week), that it's a daily struggle, both mentally against constant fatigue and physically against the niggles that pop up daily, as well as on a different psychological level, wherein I'm never confident that I'll ever measure up to past performances. Also, that it's as hard for me as anyone else to fit my training into a busy work and life schedule--in other words, that I'm a normal masters runner.

THREE, I wanted to capture three weeks of my training to illustrate personally how the workouts/training/advice in my new book, FAST 5K, can be implemented. I do a LOT of different types of workouts, but every single one of them has a purpose (I discuss this as I detail the workouts in my PodiumRunner log). It's the mix of all the workouts together that leads to success--every single workout reinforces a previous workout or prepares me for a later workout, and the combination of workouts creates the all-around running fitness that allows me to continue to train at this level.

Now, quickly ....

ALTERNATING SHOES: Yes, it's because each shoe brand and model creates a slightly different stimulus (mechanics). By alternating shoes daily (I use 3 trainers, one race flat for training, and different flats for actual races), I limit any negative effects that might be created by using a single shoe. It's eccentric, but it works.

HIGH MILEAGE: I don't count my miles. The editor totaled my mileage based upon my log--that's when I saw that I was at 85 miles/week. Wow! LOL! I run the workouts that will lead to fitness, I balance each and every workout with every other workout to ensure the kind of all-around fitness that will allow me to continue to train effectively. The total mileage that that adds up to isn't important. The correct training--the links in the chain--is what's important.

WHAT ISN'T IN THE BLOG: Someone here wrote how extraordinary it is to get to 85 miles/week in three months. Well, yes, I obviously have some genetic advantage. BUT I also started last May with a week of walking. Then two weeks of walk/jogging. Then a systematic build-up to higher mileage, which included injury-prevention workouts from week one. The walking-walk/jogging is something other runners have made fun of. But it strengthens my muscle fibers and connective tissue enough (along with the non-running exercises) that I'm prepared for the initial stimulus of all-running to a greater degree than runners who insist on launching straight into all-running.

Look, bottom line, I'm lucky to be able to run and train at the level I do. But mostly I'm lucky to be able to run and train at all, just like all of us. And I'm SO grateful to be back in the actually-running community. I'm might get up out of my chair in a few seconds, pull a hamstring, and be out for the fall. But until something like that happens, like all of us, I can dream of great workouts and races to come.

yes i've run the DC Road Runners club 4-mile age-handicapped race on 4th of July a few times -- i won once [i think when i was in 45-49 AG], which got me first pick of the random prizes the race director brings -- lots of pressure as you look them over and people hover behind whispering "don't take the pie......leave the 6-pack for me......"

that race is back and forth on towpath with two 180 turns, so you can monitor progress. Very fun format -- you're chasing down older runners and feel as though you're doing great, then at a turnaround realize "the young people are gaining on me. hurry up!".

good luck and have fun with it,

Dave