50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Allen1959 wrote:

Charlie -- I'm surprised you didn't get a couple more races in ... to take advantage of your current fitness.

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WOW! to all the great racing . Welcome new oldsters I follow everyone's races with interest. Also enjoy the build ups and ex post factos.

This may sound strange coming from a guy a few weeks shy of 63 but I am thinking long term;)

I was losing my base and base is what I need to BUILDUP.

Speed is not the problem. My 5k race pace feels really easy for the first few laps . So

The 2 week break was REFRESHING I lost a little fitness but did a lot of up tempo biking so not that much.

The first week back running was nice my legs feel fresh springy.

My change of focus from 1500 to 5k is another reason for the short season . The 5000 is just long enough to keep me focused on building aerobic fitness.

My 5k AG PR is 4 percent LESS than my 1500. 85.xx vs 89.xx. I want to get the 5000 at least up to the 1500 . WAG if I do this my 1500 will also improve then world domination will be Mine! Movie Stars Fast Cars all that stuff.

This next year I want to run 60 minutes every day while improving my lt. The race times will come later. Also I used to feel like running was not that healthy but with the last 9 months of easy stuff leaving me feeling really well I now believe that a high level of fitness with running can be very healthy .

Since turning 50 over two months ago I've waited to post anything. Since March of 2017, I've made sure to train for races in my natural distances again because I have too many injuries or other problems. (So 5K and shorter). My best events were 800, 1500, 400 but I have always loved to run cross country...

May's training was careful. I started my outdoor season for summer the last Saturday in May with a road 5K. It was hard and I had some injury pain but my time was quite good. It was a nice surprise.

My June goal was a road 1 Mile for the last Saturday of that month. The training was OK because I'd have a really good day and then a bad one. June 8 I ran a 1 Mile track race and it was good. June 15 was a good 1200 meters. And June 22 was a great 800 meters! But on June 29 I was too sick to go to race that road 1 Mile that was my big goal. So I've raced it about 25 times in 30 years now.

July 4th I raced a road 5K. It was so hot that it made me a little sick but it was a solid time.

July 9th I had a little outpatient surgery with anesthesia.

Since then I've raced a good 400m, an even better 400m, and then a bad 800m.

Tuesday, July 17, 2019, I did some speedwork. I just made it up as I went along using the accurately measured distances in the roads. I warmed up (LOL it's so hot where I live, at least 97 (36) today, with a 2 1/2 mile run to a stadium and back where the school band was practicing. Then I had a 4: 28.73-minute break with water, stretching, a couple of drills. Then I ran 10 X 440y on a little incline...They were mediocre good. And that's all I want to say about that. I did not run a cooldown. I walked 1 1/2 miles on the same incline and went inside.

Good luck to you.

Allen, here is some more detail and background from the weekend.

My wife and I ran this in the early 90s. She got a 6th overall one year and ran a PR there. I ran my very last PR ever at 33 on the Boilermaker course. So some history and good memories.

Almost 30 years later, the course was more difficult than I remembered! My goal was to really hammer this one and run 55 minutes or so. I felt pretty ready, although training has been down about 10% from the winter training cycle and much of last year. Just a lot of stuff going on, so I'm listening to my body. Nevertheless, had a solid block of training and have averaged about 100 km/week over 2 months.

Race day was warm and humid (70 at the start, 88% humidity) and it warmed up some during the race when the sun came out. Race was delayed for 20 minutes due to a tragic incident near the start--you actually might have seen that on the news.

Going in my plan was for splits of 6:00-6:10 for 4 miles (climb about 280 ft with a couple of rollers) and then average 5:50 or so to finish. Piece of cake right?

Reality was 6:20 through 4 miles (5K at 19:08 official chip time, 10K split 38:04) and 6:02 to finish at 6:10 pace (57:31).

Won the age group, and turns out that was 2nd best all time in the race's 42 year history, so not complaining about that! And it gives some incentive to return. Also was 3rd best age graded masters on Sunday (88%), behind a 4 time Olympian (Abdi) and a 45 year old Kenyan (they were 90%+).

The race has great crowd support and good logistics (downside being the race start is sort of a cluster, without enough portajohns, and a security bottleneck just to get into the start corral). But other than that, they nail it all pretty well. I couldn't believe the number of people out on the streets almost the entire way, especially the last 2 miles. They also have the best after race party at the Saranac brewery, like going to a rock concert. And they really play up the elite awards, introducing top 5 Americans, top 10 overall, and top 5 masters.

I completely agree with the first point. I’m not against CBD usage, but it’s definitely a buyer beware situation. I’ve seen reports of product testing that show some retail CBD items that actually have no CBD in them. Make sure you buy from a reputable company that can provide independent testing results.

The big issue is that the federal government still considers marijuana to be a Schedule 1 drug which strictly limits the testing that can be done. The sooner the feds join the 21st century, the sooner we can get some serious studies done instead of relying on anecdotal evidence.

Regarding the second point, lots of legitimate businesses have a seamy side. Surely, Igy, you see that in the investment banking industry. I’m not sure that is a reason to avoid an industry.

Hey CM, is the older forum you mentioned the MERV one? I frequented that back in the late '90s.

Coyote Montane wrote:

Hi DougC, I think we knew each other on another forum way back some 20 years ago. Welcome to the 50+ club and this thread (figure they'd like to get rid of me here, but I'm poor at taking social cues so they're stuck). Poor them.

I also ran 5:00.8 at 50 and again at 51. 5:03.8 at 54. Haven't run under 5:10 since. Might do a road mile next month as a tune up for the ATL 5K. Hope to see you at Clubs.

likewise jimBOS. And way to fight back from all that! Your recent times are very good and you'll be a force on the circuit.

AK67,

I am in agreement as well on all your points and realize the problems and ethical dilemmas of my profession. Going back to the banking regulatory issues of the marijuana industry, it was a bit of an eye opener. Rarely do you see this specific of a warning. However, just yesterday I had a client asking about a specific marijuana company. My impression is as an investment that it is a lottery ticket. I have seen similar in vogue ideas manipulated by underworld scams and schemes. The stock in question has traded for less than a year with wide swings between 17 cents and a dollar. There are dozens of similar companies with maybe a handful that are legitimate. It is clear then in my mind that the industry has some hurdles to clear in the science of products as well as the legitimacy of entities supporting the industry.

Igy

Allen1959,

You wrote: “Your training is looking pretty serious. Do you figure CV pace as about 10K race pace? I rarely touch on that in training, but once last year I tried "alternations" of 800m at 10K pace, 800 m at marathon pace (if I recall correctly). It was much more "doable" than I expected. Six miles total, IIRC.”

My thoughts: If I am not serious I would not train hard. I would jog, swim, spin bike and lift weights for fitness. Not race.

Several posters use heart rate monitors to gage effort and training zones. Even heart rate zones will be subject to stresses daily and maybe more accurate but only within percentages. As a practical matter for coaching I see the Daniels training nomenclature more useful. Tinman’s Critical Velocity is a refinement of Daniels “short tempo” or “cruise intervals.” I believe the rest interval acts as a governor on effort. A minute recovery is sufficiently short on CV not to turn it faster, as into an Interval session to use the Daniels term. This morning I ran 2 x 2 mile Tempo at 18:15 and 17:47 with 2:00 rest. I ran the first mile at perceived effort and did not check my watch until I hit the mile. I was using my perceived effort to avoid racing against myself, and gauging Tempo pace. Now I will grant that I pushed a bit on the second run, but I was not racing myself, and stayed close to what I think I could hold for an hour (the definition of Tempo by Dr. Daniels).

Igy

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

My thoughts: If I am not serious I would not train hard. I would jog, swim, spin bike and lift weights for fitness. Not race.

Yes, I think everyone here is serious about racing and training. I was just observing that you're "gettin' after it" very well. Three quality workouts.

I've never measured heart rate (no idea, even, what my resting or max rate might be), so have always relied on the stopwatch and/or perceived effort to gauge paces.

When it's been a long while since I've raced (like now), repeats and threshold runs are strictly "by feel." I don't check midway splits, and don't set time targets. The elapsed time informs my racing potential, not the other way around.

If I've raced recently, I may have a target pace in mind for repeats or threshold runs, and may try to hit specific splits along the way. But I'm still just as likely to run only by feel, especially for threshold runs. After all these years, I know how VO2max and LT pace feel.

Not so much "CV" pace, or Daniels "short tempo" if that's what he calls it. I'm comfortable with my short list of old standby workouts:

6 x 800m at 3K-5K pace

3 x mile at 3K-5K pace

6 x 3-minute hills at 3K effort

3 x 2-mile at 1-hr race pace

4- to 5-mile run at 1-hr race pace

I've never targeted 10K race pace, except for that one workout last year. I also rarely target Marathon Pace, even when marathon training. Long runs are much slower (or progressions). Tempos and repeats are much faster. MP usually comes naturally on race day.

But maybe I'll try shaking things up a bit going into the fall racing season.

Coyote Montane wrote:

My wife and I ran this in the early 90s. She got a 6th overall one year and ran a PR there. I ran my very last PR ever at 33 on the Boilermaker course. So some history and good memories.

CM -- Thanks for sharing. Top six OA for your wife back in the day! Impressive! Great backstory, and, truly a stellar performance for you this year on a warm and muggy day. And hills! A couple years ago I returned to my old haunts for a half marathon, and, yikes, I had forgotten how hilly just a "regular" course can be. I'm spoiled by the purposely flat races where I am now.

Allen1959,

I will probably go to two quality days and a long run this fall. The three quality days gets reduced when I start to drag, like this week.

I have always felt you do a good job structuring your training. It seems well thought out and produces. So I wouldn’t change a thing, except make accommodations for the knee.

Igy

Charlie...why do you need fast time to achieve world domination? Can't you just rely on good looks...hee hee?

jimBOS wrote:

Hey CM, is the older forum you mentioned the MERV one? I frequented that back in the late '90s.

Yes and I remember you! That'd make 4-5 of us here in this thread. And there are a bunch more out there in the mix.

That's cool that we're still hanging in there! I saw your race recap from Boilermaker. I ran that back in '85 when I was in really good shape and ended up falling apart. That's a deceptively tough course with the hills and heat/humidity. Great job on the time!

Coyote Montane wrote:

jimBOS wrote:

Hey CM, is the older forum you mentioned the MERV one? I frequented that back in the late '90s.

Yes and I remember you! That'd make 4-5 of us here in this thread. And there are a bunch more out there in the mix.

*Week 423*

Greetings, 50+ers! Cool to see some more runners join the fray....and fast ones at that! Welcome DougC, JimBOS, OkaOkchakko69! And props again for some fine racing from a few of y'all last week!

To answer Allen1959: 1) No, I don't have a diagnosis on the knee. Tentatively, I was hoping that I might have sprained it a few months back, but now I'm not so sure...sometimes it feels pretty good, other times it will suddenly hurt badly with just the wrong twist. Might need to go have a MRI at some point, but I will say that the compression sleeve is really giving me some life. 2) Retrorunnning is just running backwards, I do it for maybe 30-40 steps each leg for 4-5 times with short walks in between all post-run/walk. I find that reverse loading helps to loosen up some of the muscles around the knee that might have tightened up during the previous effort. I used to be more regular about it and fell away from it 3-4 years ago. Rtype reminded me that I should get back to it.

Little progress this week: partly work, partly summer heat doldrums, partly caution. Had a good run/walk last Sunday and then on Tuesday did 500m run/250m walk x5 around the grass soccer fields (with retrorunning afterwards in both cases.) I think the 500m was a little far (in the 7-7:30/mi pace range) and it did set my knee back just a bit as it was more tender than typical afterwards. Took Wednesday off, did a decent walk Thursday, but it's been so dang hot and quite frankly I just was a little worn out from effectively doing two jobs the past couple of weeks. Friday was a blow out, but then I did a nice 5 mile walk at sub-15:00/mi pace on Saturday and it seems the knee is back to behaving, so we'll give it another go this week. Glad to say that the interviews and hiring of knew lab instructional specialists is behind us, so maybe I'll be able to finish off the summer doing mostly the one job, but I the Asst. Dean work is ramping up; I'll be glad when the adjunct teaching work is done and I can focus on the coming fall.

For those affected, I hope y'all are surviving this heatwave OK; It's finally supposed to break for us tonight. On Facebook, I've enjoyed Cush's and Mike Rohl's Tour de France homages. Speaking of which, Mike's wife did some good things at USATF Masters last week....and we should all be inspired by Roy Englert (M96) 42:30.23 @5k...Wow! And nice run by Sabra Harvey (W70) 22:27.73 in 5k @NCCWMA Toronto yesterday! Have a great week everyone!

All the Best!

Good morning from Eagle, Idaho. The mornings have been cool in the low fifties, that is about to change. We should break 100 for the first time this year. Last weekend I ended up working on a lot of small household projects that were sidelined last year. You fix one thing and get ahead then have a microwave and air conditioner go out. The joys of home ownership. By Monday I had a scheduled a hard day and opted for sleeping-in instead.

I did have two decent days, Wednesday 2 x 2 mile tempo @ 18:15 and 17:46 with a 2:00 rest and Saturday 6 x 500m @ 2:12, 2:05, 2:08, 2:08, 2:09 and 2:09 with 300m walk rest. The balance of the week was spin biking and one easy foothills run. Aerobic capacity is improving as well as anaerobic endurance. Nothing dramatic, but I do notice a subtle improvement.

The first three weeks in August I plan to race two 5k roads and finish with the Idaho Senior Games Track. From there I plan to take a couple weeks active rest. This fall I hope to be strong enough to add some more volume and perhaps some cross country.

Butter Your Toast!

Igy

Run Fast Repeat

after my 2 week break from running I am ramping up by feel so far so good

40 minutes a day either soft sand or low tide hard sand

highlights

Friday double 40 minutes soft sand and a 40 minute hilly rootee trail run

Saturday 60 minute long run soft sand

Kinda switched biking for hiking doing 30 to 120 minute daily rides

C2 Rowing 20 minutes 2 or 3 days a week 4k in around 20 minutes not hard or easy

Lifting oh yea I needed to lift too embarrassed to say how little I can bench but high reps

Sauna 30 minutes x 5 days a week

Diet cut out wheat dairy and way back on meat except for fish

The 96 year old looks amazing wonder what he looked like at 63?

"so dang hot" [and humid] is a good summary of this past week in DC area.

M 45:00 + 60:00 x-t

Tu 50:00 + 60:00 x-t

W 1:05 + 45:00 x-t

Th 1:15

F 60:00 x-t

Sa 2:00

Su 1:15

Saturday was the official start of 14 X 9-day cycles leadup to JFK 50-mile, with a few other races along the way incl. Sept. half-marathon. Going for probably my one remaining gettable PR. Only previous ultra was the 2011 Stone Mill "50" miler, which was the centerpiece of CNN correspondent Tom Foreman's book "My Year of Running Dangerously"

Finished that one in 9:22:55, and I'm shooting for under 9 hours this time. Since I'm 30+ seconds slower in the mile and over 20 minutes slower in marathon now vs. then, this might seem unlikely, but there is some fat in that 9:22, such as:

--i was just trying to finish and did not concern myself with pace

--waited about 5 minutes at one confusing [to me] point on trail until someone else caught up and showed me the way to go

--ran an extra mile or so with a pack of lost souls early in the race

--two stream crossings where one had to stop and hold onto a rope while walking on boulders and praying for balance

--most importantly, race was acknowledged to be long, by most estimates maybe by 4 miles or so

Ballpark plan is 10:00 miles [i think JFK is 50.2, so that would be 8:22] when I'm moving on canal towpath or road, leaving me max 38:00 total for scrambling/walking on Appalaichan Trail at the start, bathroom breaks, etc. Can't afford to get lost, but larger field and long towpath segment should help with that.

have a great week,

Dave

My condolences to the many of you who are dealing with this awful heat wave. Here in central California it’s actually been slightly cooler than usual, although that’s about to change with forecast highs over 100 for all of next week. But at least it’s dry, and cools down at night. I’m happy that the coming week will be a super-easy taper week leading up to my marathon next Sunday.

This week I did five days of easy running, one day of hiking, and one day of easy cycling. 53 running miles for the week. This was the first weekend in about two months that I didn’t do at least a moderately long run and it sure felt weird.

I wish I had some confidence in my ability to run a decent marathon next week. I ran two good races in May but since then it’s all been downhill. I’ve felt constantly tired and my two July races were fair and poor. I really hope that a couple of easy weeks will do the trick. The weather forecast for race day is seasonable for San Francisco, around 55-60 degrees during the race.. Warmer than ideal for a marathon but I’m sure not going to complain about those conditions in July.

dhaaga, I’m impressed that you’re going after a 50-miler with the intent of running well and not just finishing. I can’t imagine running that distance! And your report about your last 50-miler sounds downright harrowing. I’m chicken enough about fording streams during plain old hikes—forget about doing it in the middle of a race!

Stay cool, everyone. I hope to have a marathon race report sometime next Sunday, although I won’t even get home until late afternoon.

dhaaga, my experience with racing 50K - 100 miles has always been that when I go out way super slow without a care, i always ended up running WAY faster than ever expected...and when I tried to stay on a certain pace early, I usually faded more than I'd have liked...50K 3:05:13 was just out on a lark at 7:30 pace for 5 miles and ended up averaging 5:53...same with the longer ones...lord knows I've died my share of horrible deaths after 35 or 40 miles...eeeeesssssh...keep it light, keep it casual and you are likely to break 8:00 IMHO...oh, and its all about fueling and keeping your blood sugar level at stasis

Decent week here...this morning, surpassed the 700 mile mark year to date 2019...on track for one of my all time lowest volume years ever...good news is I have not yet missed a single training day this calendar year...not one...no Ron Hill, but I'll take it.

Got in 28 miles this week highlighted by a 2 mile on the track that was intended as a tempo run but morphed into a time trial once I realized I had a shot at breaking 15:00...ended up at 14:47...(7:30 / 7:17)... merely 5 3/4 minutes slower than my lifetime best from back in the Paleozoic Era ;{

Been following the big masters meet up in Toronto...some very impressive performances...inspiring as all get out!!

Have a super week of training and racing...in the words of the inimitable Walt Stack, "start slowly and taper off"

your pal,

MF