This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
I've included the table for all outcomes below. In spite of not continuing ivermectin after day five and not including supplemental zinc, the numbers do not support the conclusion that ivermectin was not effective. Here are the data.
Ivermectin deaths: 3 Control: 10
You're a doctor, right? How can you just blow off results like this? Don't you remember the first human test of penicillin? It worked until the doctors ran out of penicillin, the infection returned, the patient died.
And this doesn't make sense either. The lead author wrote: "The higher incidence of side effects with ivermectin in our study raises concerns about the widespread use of this drug outside clinical trial setting," lead researcher Dr. Steven Lim told CNN in an email.
See Figure 4 in the study in the second link. Dr. Lim's above statement is also NOT supported. The only adverse event with any noticeable difference was diarrhea (18 vs 14). Diarrhea is treatable. Death is not (3 vs 10). If the death rate is statistically insignificant, then so is the adverse events rate.
The numbers absolutely do not support the conclusion that ivermectin was effective (you cannot prove a negative). Just like every other major trial that's been run.
If your argument is that IVM wasn't given for a long enough time then why is there no signal in the first-to-occur events such as (the primary endpoint!) progression in severe disease and ZERO difference in other clinical endpoints at day 5.
I absolutely can blow off cherry picked results from secondary outcome tables that are not statistically significant. This is exactly why IVM got too much hype to begin with. People got all excited about tiny, underpowered studies that reported low-frequency event noise as real results. This is why we do statistics – so we can look at 3 vs 10 days and say "relative to the sample size and expected distributions of these events, this difference is not statistically significant."
Regardless, it makes zero sense that you'd see no difference in any other primary or secondary outcome but then magically IVM prevents against death. Not ICU admission, ventilation, but only death. This is how people fool themselves and hype drugs that do nothing.
As for adverse events, you're reading the table wrong I believe.
There were 38 non-serious AEs in IVM arm vs 12 in control. 23 vs 7 grade one. 8 vs 3 grade 2. 6 vs 2 grade 3 and 5 vs 1 grade for. I don't know the significance tests on this but certainly if we are going to ignore statistics and say "3 vs 10 deaths IVM works!" we need to say "38 vs 12 AEs! IVM is toxic!"
A known issue with IVM (aside from it, you know, not working against COVID) is that you need really high doses to get to hypothetically efficacious blood concentrations. Unsurprising to see much more AEs in the IVM arm.
I've included the table for all outcomes below. In spite of not continuing ivermectin after day five and not including supplemental zinc, the numbers do not support the conclusion that ivermectin was not effective. Here are the data.
Ivermectin deaths: 3 Control: 10
You're a doctor, right? How can you just blow off results like this? Don't you remember the first human test of penicillin? It worked until the doctors ran out of penicillin, the infection returned, the patient died.
And this doesn't make sense either. The lead author wrote: "The higher incidence of side effects with ivermectin in our study raises concerns about the widespread use of this drug outside clinical trial setting," lead researcher Dr. Steven Lim told CNN in an email.
See Figure 4 in the study in the second link. Dr. Lim's above statement is also NOT supported. The only adverse event with any noticeable difference was diarrhea (18 vs 14). Diarrhea is treatable. Death is not (3 vs 10). If the death rate is statistically insignificant, then so is the adverse events rate.
From the image you posted, you'll see that a higher number, and a higher percentage, of the IVM patients went on to severe disease. Is that important? No, it's not, because while the difference looks like it might mean something, it's statistically insignificant. Look at the far-right column of p values. That whole column tells you that none of the differences between the IVM group and the control group were statistically significant.
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but IVM doesn't work. HCQ doesn't work. They don't work in combination with each other or with anything else. There are very good ways to test whether treatments work, and they've been tried, and IVM doesn't work any better than sugar pills or voodoo. If you believe in voodoo, by all means, visit your local Santeria practitioner if you get Covid and it might help you! But it would be irresponsible to tell doctors to prescribe voodoo, or to complain that Fauci failed to recommend voodoo in March 2020. After careful scientific study, it's been found that IVM works no better than voodoo.
Thanks for posting about p values. They weren't in Table 4 at all.
I didn't get the voodoo reference because I hadn't read that article yet. I read a couple of the linked articles and found this curious recipe for a voodoo tea... moringa, eucalyptus, ginger and honey. These are all thought to be immune system boosters! I might not cure covid, but maybe these old witch doctors are on to something. :)
Why are we still even posting on this thread. It's been a pandemic of the unvaccinated for almost a year.
Harambe,
It is no longer a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Omicron turned this into a pandemic of everyone (Vaccinated, Unvaccinated, boosted, the surgeon general, the queen of England and Prince Charles). For individuals your age (18-29), the hospitalization rate from the UKHSA weekly surveillance report, was actually higher among the vaccinated (7.87 per 100k) than the unvaccinated (7.34 per 100k). The case rate was more than double (3,294.6 per 100k vs. 1,495.10 per 100k), and there wasn't that much of a difference in the death rate (0.30 vs. 0.46). So at this point, vaccinated Harambe is performing no better than his unvaccinated peers. The boosted only performed slightly better on hospitalizations (5.2 vs 7.34) and death (0.3 vs 0.46). Keep dreaming you are getting 30x the protection.
It is no longer a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Omicron turned this into a pandemic of everyone (Vaccinated, Unvaccinated, boosted, the surgeon general, the queen of England and Prince Charles). For individuals your age (18-29), the hospitalization rate from the UKHSA weekly surveillance report, was actually higher among the vaccinated (7.87 per 100k) than the unvaccinated (7.34 per 100k). The case rate was more than double (3,294.6 per 100k vs. 1,495.10 per 100k), and there wasn't that much of a difference in the death rate (0.30 vs. 0.46). So at this point, vaccinated Harambe is performing no better than his unvaccinated peers. The boosted only performed slightly better on hospitalizations (5.2 vs 7.34) and death (0.3 vs 0.46). Keep dreaming you are getting 30x the protection.
Wow, I thought you had the humility to slink away when your proclamations of 'vaccine failure' fell flat for the second variant in a row. But, no, still spreading your propaganda and bad math it seems.
The UKHSA reports 80% effectiveness against hospitalization for all vaccines combined against Omicron 4-6 months after a booster. This includes the crappy ChadOx whatever as an initial dose that isn't nearly as good as the mRNAs. Find that on page 12 of the vaccine report you cite.
The Ontario data also confirms >85% protection against hospitalization and ~95% protection against ICU. This was the data you were frothing over for weeks until it showed that the vaccine worked. Then... crickets.
NOTICE: This website is no longer updated.If you have questions about previously published Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table resources, please email communications@oahpp.ca. Current Status in Ontario Contents Current St...
I enjoy my outstanding protection against severe disease. Likely better than 'natural immunity' without additonal vaccination. You can continue to tilt at windmills as I easily send you home devastate with simple arithmetic. Be my guest.
Researchers from the the Sheba Medical Center in Ramat Gan, Israel, followed more than 500 people who had either just caught the virus or had recently received two jabs between 2020 and 2021.
Likely better than 'natural immunity' without additonal vaccination.
Boy that had to hurt saying it like that. And it isn’t even true. Nobody who doesn’t already agree with you is listening to you anymore. That was reason enough for the other thread to get locked.
Boy that had to hurt saying it like that. And it isn’t even true. Nobody who doesn’t already agree with you is listening to you anymore. That was reason enough for the other thread to get locked.
Ignore the data all you want. Recent UK data shows that prior infection is only ~70% protective against death. Objectively worse than vaccination.
Unlike you, I change my mind with new data. You simply put the blinders and pretend nothing has changed.
Have you seen the speculation that Omicron was created in mice in a lab and escaped? The evolutionary tree (shown in the article below) is possible but unlikely naturally, but it's easy to explain the evolution in serial infections in mice in a lab.
Of course, with Omicron causing tens of thousands of deaths, no one is going to admit that it came from a lab.
Fisky, Harambe may be a very good statistician, but he is not a virologist, immunologist, or molecular biologist. It is certainly plausible that this strain was created via serial passage among mice in a lab setting. However, “serial passage” can also happen among immunocompromised humans who live in close proximity, so I wouldn’t be as quick as this article to dismiss just such an outcome, even if it wasn’t readily detected. It’s less likely with so many mutations in the RBD, but, since this strain “appeared” in so many locations all at once, namely southern parts of Africa as well as Europe, it is likely it was cultivated much sooner, likely in immunocompromised hosts. A vaccine would also expedite this genetic drift, especially in an HIV patient, for example.
Have you seen the speculation that Omicron was created in mice in a lab and escaped? The evolutionary tree (shown in the article below) is possible but unlikely naturally, but it's easy to explain the evolution in serial infections in mice in a lab.
Of course, with Omicron causing tens of thousands of deaths, no one is going to admit that it came from a lab.
Thoughts?
The arguments I've seen for Omicron origin include several hard-to-prove theories. It's true that Omicron is surprisingly distant from any known relatives on the SARS-CoV-2 'family tree.' It seems very unlikely that Omicron emerged in a place with good genomic surveillance, otherwise we would have seen more ancestral strains similar to Omicron.
1) 'Normal' origin in an area with very limited genomic surveillance. It's possible the variant emerged normally but wasn't detected for a long time because it was only circulating in isolated places with no viral sequencing. Then, it acquired some additional mutations that made it much more transmissible and it spread world wide.
2) Lab origin. Maybe someone was selecting for viruses that evaded existing antibodies, etc. Going to be hard to prove. Doesn't really fit with the fact that the virus first took of on Africa -- less scientific infrastructure there. Would be horribly irresponsible research but people do do stuff like this. Far, far less evidence for this than the Wuhan lab leak theory.
3) Zoonotic transfer. SARS-CoV-2 hopped to an animal, mutated, and hopped back. Or some wild combination of those. Would explain the large number of previously unseen mutations as we have not been surveilling animal populations.
4) Long-term infection in an immunocompromised host. Someone cultivates the virus for months with a weakened immune system, constantly selecting for more evasive mutations. Appealing theory for African origin because of the higher rate of HIV+ people there.
The 'vaccines caused Omicron' argument needs to explain why Omicron and Delta both seem to have emerged in places with low vaccine coverage. Why are we not seeing all these escape variants emerge in Western Europe with 90+% vaccine coverage in some places. The data does not match the hypothesis at all.
This may have been posted somewhere in this long thread. Interesting take.
COVID Won’t End Up Like the Flu. It Will Be Like Smoking. Hundreds of thousands of deaths, from either tobacco or the pandemic, could be prevented with a single behavioral change.
To be fair many, myself included, have been calling for the moderators to clean up the covid spamming of the boards for a long time.
Speaking of pandemics of the vaccinated, is it time for Biden to institute travel bans or at the very least advisories for travel to and from countries like New Zealand, Norway and Denmark? Their cases are jumping off the charts and Denmark is a hot bed of the “stealth” variant.
HONG KONG (AP) — Hong Kong will test its entire population of 7.5 million people for COVID-19 in March, the city’s leader said Tuesday, as it grapples with its worst outbreak driven by the omicron variant.
Boy that had to hurt saying it like that. And it isn’t even true. Nobody who doesn’t already agree with you is listening to you anymore. That was reason enough for the other thread to get locked.
Ignore the data all you want. Recent UK data shows that prior infection is only ~70% protective against death. Objectively worse than vaccination.
Unlike you, I change my mind with new data. You simply put the blinders and pretend nothing has changed.
Still rearranging the deck chairs of the Titanic? Lol. ☝️Lots on going on with disclosure of fraud & corruption within the vaxx manufacturers & the CDC:
Blackrock whistleblower Edward Dowd predicted wall street would start to wake up because their money is on the line. The media cannot cover up the bodies forever. DISCLAIMER: Views and opinions expressed on The Ben Armstrong...
The CDC seems to know that someone is going to blow a whistle on them from within and they are trying to get out ahead of the story. When The New York Times admits the CDC has been hiding the true data, something is about to...
Have you seen the speculation that Omicron was created in mice in a lab and escaped? The evolutionary tree (shown in the article below) is possible but unlikely naturally, but it's easy to explain the evolution in serial infections in mice in a lab.
Of course, with Omicron causing tens of thousands of deaths, no one is going to admit that it came from a lab.
Fisky, Harambe may be a very good statistician, but he is not a virologist, immunologist, or molecular biologist. It is certainly plausible that this strain was created via serial passage among mice in a lab setting. However, “serial passage” can also happen among immunocompromised humans who live in close proximity, so I wouldn’t be as quick as this article to dismiss just such an outcome, even if it wasn’t readily detected. It’s less likely with so many mutations in the RBD, but, since this strain “appeared” in so many locations all at once, namely southern parts of Africa as well as Europe, it is likely it was cultivated much sooner, likely in immunocompromised hosts. A vaccine would also expedite this genetic drift, especially in an HIV patient, for example.
Harambe is a foot soldier for the industry. Their strategy is to harass, antagonize & intimidate the vaccine hesitant. Despite the mounting evidence of fraud & corruption with the manufacturers & the CDC, they continue their agenda of defending & pushing the vaccine on those who simply don't want to take it.
