50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

First days at altitude, make sure you hydrate more.

I like to walk uphill at a brisk pace when I go up to 8000 feet during the summer for training. After the walk, I throw in some dynamic stretches, then start with some easy running. Walking first seems to really make the rest of the workout much easier than going straight into a slow run when I go up to altitude.

FYI, I go up to Mt. Pinos north of Los Angeles during the summer, usually once a week. This year there's still too much snow so far

Go get 'em Paul! Sometimes slow and steady DOES win the race. Glad to read that a little thing like grinding 1/4" inch off your femur (yikes!) has not dampened your competitive spirit. Very inspiring....

KU Relays ran a Masters 800 and Master's 1 mile for each sex last weekend. One really impressive result was Gary Patton (70+) who ran 6:02.30.

Paul061 wrote:

I still have the goal of Boston and turning 55 this year gives me 5 more minutes! Anyways, that's my pathetic story, thanks for having me again!

My advice: persist!

I tried BQing throughout my 30's and got within 2 minutes of it with a 2:52 - my lifetime PR. Decades later I took the bombing of the marathon very personally and decided to go after Boston again. It took a few years to get back to that level, but it was possible.

This year was my 4th BM with a BQ for next year; 42 minutes under the 65-year qualifying time (3:23:13 last week).

My goal for next year: get faster + finish in the top ten of my age group.

Forget the age thing, build back slowly, keep learning, Don't give up!

Good job bmw54. At 68 I have no desire to run that far. I think 5k is about my upper limit.

Paul061 wrote:

I still have the goal of Boston and turning 55 this year gives me 5 more minutes! Anyways, that's my pathetic story, thanks for having me again![/quote]

My advice: persist!

I tried BQing throughout my 30's and got within 2 minutes of it with a 2:52 - my lifetime PR. Decades later I took the bombing of the marathon very personally and decided to go after Boston again. It took a few years to get back to that level, but it was possible.

This year was my 4th BM with a BQ for next year; 42 minutes under the 65-year qualifying time (3:23:13 last week).

My goal for next year: get faster + finish in the top ten of my age group.

Forget the age thing, build back slowly, keep learning, Don't give up![/quote]

Thanks, it's become more of an obsession than anything else. either I will make it or my wife will shoot me for talking about it so much!

old guy II wrote:

KC, my experience has been that it has almost always been upper hamstring attachment causing that pain. Sadly, at our age it usually takes a long time to go away.

Yes, this sounds about right. It’s better today, but good thing I don’t run a half marathon every two weeks like some of those maniacs.

KCgeezer wrote:

old guy II wrote:

KC, my experience has been that it has almost always been upper hamstring attachment causing that pain. Sadly, at our age it usually takes a long time to go away.

Yes, this sounds about right. It’s better today, but good thing I don’t run a half marathon every two weeks like some of those maniacs.

Last year I radically changed my running "form" from bouncing off my calfs to powering off my hamstrings,hips and glutes:

Instead of doing the exercises I just run in soft sand barefoot (think sandtrap ) which forces me to generate power using proper form without effort cause I am getting zero rebound which is what I will call running on your lower legs and leads to calf problems eventually. I am surprised Rupp's calfs still work. BK otoh generated his power from his hips. When I venture onto hard ground I gotta remember not to bounce . Also my upper hs atch is way better probably because my hips and glutes are activated much better team work all oars pulling together. Anything over the 5000 meters is a marathon.

As slow as I am currently the 5k is certainly my marathon.

Greetings all -Hope everyone's week is going well.I continued to be impressed and inspired by the level of talent and personalities in this group.The moment of truth is almost upon me.This Saturday I will toe the line for my 2nd marathon with the hope that all my training thoughout this harsh winter will payoff. Once more unto the breach!

My taper week:

Wed Apr17--8miles@8:53-Easy

Thur Apr 18-8miles@8:43-Easy

Fri Apr 19----Rest

Sat Apr 20---8miles 1 warmup 7 @7:18

Sun Apr 21-6miles@9:07- Easy

Mon Apr 22-6miles 4-easy 2@7:17

Tues Apr 23-6miles@9:29 recovery pace

42 miles for the week-959YTD

Good luck, Dave!

Hi All:

Haven't been around much lately. Too much hockey has meant not enough running. I was running 40-minutes five-milers in January then in February strained my MCL playing hockey. It has taken a while to heal and there is additional pain in the knee so I had an MRI. Doc doesn't think the MCL will be a problem but they found this:

There is focal full-thickness chondral defect in the posterior weightbearing aspect of the lateral femoral condyle measuring approximately 7 x 8 mm with underlying subchondral bone edema.

Other side of the knee from the MCL. Does anyone have experience with autologous chondrocyte implantation or other surgical approaches to treating cartilage defects? They've also found the missing piece, floating in the knee behind my PCL. I don't like the thought of surgery. I also don't like the thought of some sort of traumatic worsening of the area if I leave it with a hole in the cartilage that goes down to the bone.

Any input appreciated.

Thanks!

No experience with any surgical approaches to cartilage defects.

I have a 9 x 11 mm osteochondral defect of the medial talar dome with

cartilage delamination along with a completely rupture PTT (ankle). The only surgical treatment for this type of injury is ankle fusion which wouldn't allow any high-impact activity like running. So, I'm treating it non-surgically with ankle & foot excercises, daily icing & high-dose glucosamine sulfate. It's been 3 yrs now and I'm restricted & limited to about 12-15 mpw & TTs or races of no more than 1 to 1.5 miles. Gone are the glory days 20 yrs ago (early 40s at the time) when I could do 40 mpw, twice-weekly speed workouts & race up to 10ks.

I've also had plenty of knee injuries over the years encompassing a partially torn patellar tendon, strained PCL, IT band friction syndrome & a degenerative ACL tear (2 MRIs on the right knee & one on the left). The articular cartilage in both knees looks good (so far). Surgery was only offered on the patellar tendon (tendonotomy) and I declined in favor of non-surgical rehab (a total of 8 months of intense rehab before returning to running). I wasn't in favor of knee surgery based on some of studies I reviewed with athletes showing that most invariably go onto OA. Interestingly, about 4 guys I ran & trained with 20 yrs ago all had knee surgeries for various pathologies and all progressed to OA with two getting knee replacements. Only one continues to run (one of the knee replacements) and he's restricted to racing short distances and slower speeds.

Are you pretty much asymptomatic on the cartilage defect and was this basically a secondary finding reference your MRI for the MCL? As you're probably aware of most middle-age people have knee surgery for pain issues and/or immobility that rehab measures have failed miserably (or don't want to continue taking pain meds the rest of their lives).

Age-related injuries can have such a sick sense of humor. ?

Thanks, Squatty. I appreciate the input. I definitely want to avoid surgery if possible.

Yes, this was a secondary finding, although I can't tell whether the defect is asymptomatic. I can feel the MCL sprain easily. I also can feel the patellofemoral arthritis: large areas of full-thickness chondral loss throughout majority of the lateral trochlea and lateral patellar facet including underlying degenerative subchondral cystic change/bone edema in the lateral trochlea.

I played hockey twice a week for six weeks after the MCL sprain. Didn't bother me at all when I skated, but I couldn't run without pain. What finally got me to go to the doc was pain the day or two after playing, not only in the ligament but also deep inside the knee. That internal knee pain was sometimes sharp, intense, and immobilizing, though only for a few moments until it passed. The morning after I last skated hard I had to stop twice going down the steps in the parking garage and hold onto the railing until a sudden flash of pain passed. It was coming earlier after skating and more intensely and lasting longer. I don't know if that's the arthritis under the kneecap or the defect in articular cartilage. It doesn't feel like it's under the kneecap but deeper inside.

The sports med doc I see isn't worried about the MCL (it will heal) or the arthritis. He may recommend cortisone and eventually lubricant for the patellofemoral issue (although I've warnings about injected lubricant/synthetic synovial fluid).

What he is concerned about is the femoral condyle defect because it's in a weight bearing area. What I don't know is if it's the source of that intense pain and what the risk is if I do nothing about it. I don't want to twist playing soccer with the kids or put a foot down hiking and somehow sheer off more cartilage or make things precipitously worse. If that can't happen, then I'll put off surgery for now. But do these things grow steadily?

One more thing: doc thought the pain inside the knee might be from a torn meniscus--that was the reason for the MRI. Both meniscus are fine, so it could be that the defect is what's causing that intense pain.

Charlie wrote:

Just finished best run since I started this campaign in Oct 2016 33 minute slow tempo forget the pace was able to run comfortably at 80 percent of mhr for the last 11 minutes in third went 70,75,80 percent of mhr. Not sure why because I also adjusted my diet from 200 calories of carbs a day to 600 so this could be the reason why.

After the best workout this time around last week I was beat up for many days aches and pains feeling old . The old version of Charlie would have turned the screws tighter the new version took some easy days run walks niko niko ect. So today I started out doing an easy run barefoot in the dunes and was really dragging so I stopped the 50 minute run at 25. As I was walking home my legs suddenly felt energized. My mind was making all kinda of wild suggestions like try 3 x 1600 at 6 minute pace. Crazy stuff like that. Like a switch. So I put on my fast shoes and guzzled a can of rock star and headed for Miller Park. Miller park has a nice well measured asphalt .73 loop and I was wanting to run this sucker. I rewarmed up with 30 secs on 30 secs walk for 6 minutes and just kept feeling lighter and lighter .... Springy .... I love feeling light and springy.

So off I went with no markers and no idea as to what I was doing totally unstructured I have gone out harder in 5k races but this was about at 5k effort. I felt springy all the way through....4:20 flat at 150HR about 5:57 per mile pace. With just 20 seconds rest getting my HR I decided to do a second loop but slower not jog but just run it so so 4:54 about 6:45 pace and that was like easy effort HR still at 150 which is 75 percent of MHR. I could have easily done this again but decided why bother. My training has worked I am not going to push it so then I got to thinking about shrimp

Actually boiling down training to just two things, Work and Recovery. That is it!

Work and Recovery

Adaptation = enough work with enough recovery

Injury = too much work and/or not enough recovery

I want to ride this wave for as long as possible. Last Thursday I did too much work but I was luckysmart enough to take lots of extra recovery. So now I will see how fast I recover from today's work, make sure I am fully recovered and do some more work!

Charlie wrote:

... just kept feeling lighter and lighter .... Springy .... I love feeling light and springy.

So off I went with no markers and no idea as to what I was doing totally unstructured I have gone out harder in 5k races but this was about at 5k effort. I felt springy all the way through....4:20 flat at 150HR about 5:57 per mile pace. With just 20 seconds rest getting my HR I decided to do a second loop but slower not jog but just run it so so 4:54 about 6:45 pace and that was like easy effort HR still at 150 which is 75 percent of MHR. I could have easily done this again ...!

Charlie, that's a great result. Yes, recovery is key, although I don't expect to feel light and springy ever again. Not sure if I ever have, in fact. But, I do believe you've talked me into taking tomorrow off. Carry on!

Outstanding wisdom Charlie.

To all y'all excellent advisors. I have never, ever, ever, tried working at a lighter volume training plan focused on high-quality recovery. I wonder if this makes sense for me for the last 7 weeks to Senior Nationals in ABQ. That is IF I can get past this current "heart-attack-of-the-calf". Today is Day 11 of this bugger. 3 years ago it took me about 3 weeks.

Call it a Tuesday Quality-Workout day (track, tempo, hills, whatever).

Wednesday High-Quality-Recovery day of zero-impact cross-training (spinning, core, stretching, longer dog-walks).

Thursday Slow-Jogging day (measured in minutes from as little as 30 to max of 90).

Friday Quality-Workout if ready (feeling springy) otherwise move it out another day.

Saturday High-Quality-Recovery.

Sunday Slow-Jogging.

Monday Quality-Workout.

Rinse & Repeat Including adjustments like adding another easy day or even a Zero-Day.

Seems like it might work to reduce the chronic self-inflicted injuries to my hammies/glutes, soleus/gastrocs. BUTT, does an old Middle-Distance guy even have a chance to stay fit-to-race at Age-Grade 90%+ with running only 4 or 5 days per week?

Welcome input.

KP