Frank Meza 2:53:10 at LA Marathon (70 years old) unofficial time (just finished)

Timer wrote:

doubler wrote:

For these point to point courses it would not be difficult to drive as close to possible to the timing mat, jump in 1/4 mile before and jump off shortly after crossing, return to your car and repeat.

This is a perfect example of the value of a random video camera or a random timing mat.

He wouldn't be able to do it without another driver 'following him'. If he parked near the 11.62 mile course entry, then took 6':32" to 12.4 mile (or 20km split), meaning he would take at least that long to get back to car, then drive 5km in less than 7min in an urban area.

BTW, Derek, great work. I know the USA is imperial, but if the splits are metric, can't we just leave all measurements metric, it makes it hard to follow and calculate...

Haha. I think in terms of miles. I convert everything.

Brojos sometimes don't know who butters their toast. No mention on the podcast last week either. BTW, how does the list of hot threads work? Do they have an option to block out certain threads? How is this not in the top 10? People are talking about reading the whole thread on the triathlon forum.

Yes, group effort, but Derek wrapped it up and put himself out there. He paid for the full res photos too. People threaten to him and he perserveres for the good of the sport. Kudos to Derek. He most certainly has brass balls.

BUT As for the counsel threat, good luck with that for F.M. He has no case. If he brings a suit, it would be full Streissand effect and backfire. The mainstream media would be even worse than MI.com. Witnesses now on this thread and the triathlon community is speaking out. A case would uncover even more tidbits, possibly security footage from adjacent stores and possibly the 24-hour webcam's on Hollywood that must be archived.

Let's see full DQ where warranted. No tar and feather IMO, and move on.

IMO. wrote:

Golgi Body wrote:

And what about his son? He has to know. He's run some of the same marathons as his dad, and gotten crushed by him. I think Francisco might have actually run the races, though. That's one of those difficult calls - is Francisco an okay guy himself who knows his dad is a cheat but doesn't want to turn on his own family member...or is he in on the scam?

The odds of Francisco not knowing about Franks shenanigans is about as likely as Frank never having cheated a race in his 70 years.

And no I am not reaching out to his family.

What I hope (and expect) is that the publicity leads to more tips and eyewitnesses coming forward.

When I get word from Phoenix, I will write another follow up, I will address L.A. To be clear, they did not vindicate him. But in my opinion, they are making a big mistake. I am going to clearly lay out the case for disqualification (as if it wasn't already clear).

Some RD just don't care. Not all, but some RDs are just cowards. True cowards. Some are not however.

Derek, I pointed out obvious course cutting at a certain mid-state Oregon marathon to the RD. They said, "guy could have done it...". Well, a year or so later, you caught the guy on your screener and wrote about him. RD never DQ'd him. The good news is this runner actually learned his lesson. He never ran a fast marathon again and never cut a course to BQ again. Some people do learn when confronted with their deception.

donut discrepancies wrote:

Some RD just don't care. Not all, but some RDs are just cowards. True cowards. Some are not however.

Derek, I pointed out obvious course cutting at a certain mid-state Oregon marathon to the RD. They said, "guy could have done it...". Well, a year or so later, you caught the guy on your screener and wrote about him. RD never DQ'd him. The good news is this runner actually learned his lesson. He never ran a fast marathon again and never cut a course to BQ again. Some people do learn when confronted with their deception.

There are people working for L.A. that do care, and that I have good relationships with. The decision obviously came from above them.

Could it be related to this?

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9306534

pure speculation, yes wrote:

Could it be related to this?

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9306534

If they don't DQ the good doctor, then LA is minor leagues.

+1

If race RDs made it clear that they have a random timing mat (even if they don't) that would discourage this type of cheating.

As to the psychology: He's not cheating despite all his work with kids, but because of it. His work with kids forces him to cheat. He's a role model, and determined to do whatever it takes to stay a role model. They look up to him and his example. They need him. If that means he needs to organize cheating down to the split second with a team of three accomplices, so be it. Who cares if some 72-year old fades into anonymity for running 3:49 for second place? He's out a gift certificate. Big deal. The kids, on the other hand, get to experience a real live world record holder. FM doesn't care about personal glory. He's doing it for the children. It's the height of selfless service.

Yep, famous across the US cheater Rob Young was doing it for the kids and famous Philly cheater was doing it for his kids, so I think you may be on to something there, it was nothing to do with his ego after all.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2739680/My-father-molested-sister-hung-neck-rope-fun-Inspiring-abuse-survivor-running-marathon-day-work-365-days-stop-happening-others.html

Sorry, not allowed to provide a link to the famous Philly cheater.

Another giver of +1 wrote:

If race RDs made it clear that they have a random timing mat (even if they don't) that would discourage this type of cheating.

Not sure if Comrades still does it, but they used to move their split mats around a bit without telling where its going to be....for this very reason.

There was the infamous Motsoeneng twins that swapped...however they wore their watches on different sides

my guess wrote:

As to the psychology: He's not cheating despite all his work with kids, but because of it. His work with kids forces him to cheat. He's a role model, and determined to do whatever it takes to stay a role model. They look up to him and his example. They need him. If that means he needs to organize cheating down to the split second with a team of three accomplices, so be it. Who cares if some 72-year old fades into anonymity for running 3:49 for second place? He's out a gift certificate. Big deal. The kids, on the other hand, get to experience a real live world record holder. FM doesn't care about personal glory. He's doing it for the children. It's the height of selfless service.

I really hope the Marathon Investigations stories help bring about his comeuppance. Still, I have to agree, the psychology of it all is fascinating. I can understand cheating if there is some tangible benefit, like prize money. I can also understand wanting people to admire you; that's a near-universal human trait, I think. But wanting people to admire you for something you didn't actually do - that's what I have a hard time wrapping my head around. And if that isn't already bad enough, actually going to great lengths to make those things happen is just about unfathomable. And he's an old man! I tend to think of the elderly as peaceful, eccentric, and accepting of the absurdities of life - not out there plotting and scheming to make people think they're studs. What is going through his head when he's scurrying around off the course between timing mats? Is he trying to accumulate as much falsely-earned admiration as possible in the relatively few years he has left? If so, why?

?. wrote:

Yep, famous across the US cheater Rob Young was doing it for the kids and famous Philly cheater was doing it for his kids, so I think you may be on to something there, it was nothing to do with his ego after all.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2739680/My-father-molested-sister-hung-neck-rope-fun-Inspiring-abuse-survivor-running-marathon-day-work-365-days-stop-happening-others.html

Sorry, not allowed to provide a link to the famous Philly cheater.

If you're going to cheat it's important to do it for a good cause, detracts from scrutiny and if you do get caught you'll get those who'll shout down and bury the accusers by saying he's a good fella/gal and it's for charity, a good cause, etc, so no harm done.

It didn't help my Dave though.

I've been kicking around the idea of the difference between this and doping in the last couple days. I wanted to pretend like they're totally different animals but I just can't shake it and wanted some .02 from others on this. From a devils advocate point of view, at least dopers actually run the damn course! Obviously people like this are never at the front of the race, save for their age group but, in a way, it almost seems more egregious to have so blatantly cheated (whereas doping could almost be argued to be a sort of "subliminal" cheating... though obviously still cheating through and through). Just an odd discourse that's been running through my mind on all of this, debating whether to hold him in the same contempt as I do olympic level dopers, or if there's some other tier that I should assign to his malfeasance.

Golgi Body wrote:

I have to agree, the psychology of it all is fascinating. I can understand cheating if there is some tangible benefit, like prize money. I can also understand wanting people to admire you; that's a near-universal human trait, I think. But wanting people to admire you for something you didn't actually do - that's what I have a hard time wrapping my head around. And if that isn't already bad enough, actually going to great lengths to make those things happen is just about unfathomable.

re: Psychology

I cannot wrap my head around the "He's doing it for the kids" excuse. This is the theory, right? That the scales of morality tipped in his favor, at least in his mind? That "winning" (albeit by cheating) a few marathons at age 70 is such a tremendous model of accomplishment for under-priveledged kids that the genuine inspiration they feel justifies/mitigates/negates/compensates for the cheater's moral bankruptcy and deceitfulness? Hmm. Not buying it. Though that might be the cheater's JUSTIFICATION, it's not his actual psychological MOTIVATION.

Rather, I suggest three possible motivations (or combination thereof)—all of which are far less rational, far more Id-driven than the hypothesis above.

1) The "Ha-ha! I'll show 'em!" Theory.

FBI agent Robert Hanssen was one of America's worst traitors, and one of the greatest spies for the USSR. His treachery spilled invaluable secrets, including the identities of pro-USA agents within the Kremlin—operatives who were murdered thanks to Hanssen's revelations. Why did he do it? Greed? Well, he made some money, sure... but not fortunes, and certainly not enough to justify his actions. Did he hate America? No, not really, not directly. Rather (psychologists surmise), Hanssen's massive ego was badly bruised when others got promoted above him, when "less intelligent" agents rose faster, and when he didn't amass the bounteous glory he thought he deserved. So he spied -- as a kind of "Up Yours!" to his undeserved bosses. It stroked his ego that he was somehow smarter and cleverer than the rest.

Might FM not suffer a similarly toxic ego (on an admittedly smaller scale)? This is amateur conjecture, mind you, but perhaps 5'4” FM—who despite his many actual accomplishments—was never very fast, never authentically athletic, never really cool. Many of his wards at Loyola were champions; his heralded pal/boss Coach Lalo Diaz had been a state champion too... and maybe Frank just wanted some of that glory himself. After all, HE was the doctor, HE had risen from an impoverished background, HE devoted himself to charity. But THEY’RE the champions, the exalted privileged few heading off to Berkeley and Princeton and Stanford. Perhaps Dr. M felt he deserved more… and he was going to grab some of that athletic prestige, some muscular celebrity to match his other accomplishments, one way or the other.

It worked; he “won” and his ego got duly stroked. Frank loved to tell tales of his amazing athletic accomplishments to students, teachers, parents, you name it (indeed, he managed to drop it into the first conversation he and I ever had). As much as human competitiveness can motivate achievement, perhaps the twisted version of it—the fragile (male) ego, hungry and hurt, blinded by desire and fueled by jealousy—can drive us to FALSE achievement, too.

2) The "Addiction" Theory.

The first time he cheated (I speculate), it was insignificant and minor… perhaps even an accident. He cut a course, he forgot to repeat the loop, whatever. And he practically imploded with nervousness and fear at being discovered. His heart raced, his blood pressure soared, his skin crawled… and nothing happened. He got away with it. He had cheated, and he hadn’t got caught. What a thrill! What a rush! It was intoxicating… so he did it again. And again, and again, and again. Of course, in order to chase the high, the risks had to get bigger and bigger… which means the times had to get faster and faster, and the cheating had to get more and more elaborate. And so a serial cheater was created.

Sound far-fetched? How different is this from serial philanderers, or serial gamblers, or serial adrenaline junkies… or just plain old junkies, for that matter? We all have our vices—some large, some small. Regardless, vices are deliciously, capriciously, ambitiously, viciously stimulating; if they weren’t… well, they wouldn’t be vices, would they? Far more than we acknowledge, I suspect, human nature is driven by “addictions”—to news, to crossword puzzles, to exercise, to whatever gets our rocks off, so to speak… including cheating.

3) The "Why does the dog...?" Theory.

Why? Because he can. Perhaps FM, like the dog, figured out how to get away with it, so he figured “What the hell?” There didn’t seem to be any negative consequences (till now), so the heck with it. Just do it, to coin a phrase. Why did Bernie Madoff cheat all those investors? Screw ‘em, that’s why. (Forgive the politics here, but) Why has Trump racked up 10,000+ lies in 2.5 years ? Because overall, let’s face it, it’s worked. He’s been lying his whole life—and became president (and still enjoys 80% approval among Republicans)! Why stop now??

Why do people speed, or roll through STOP signs, or cheat on their taxes, or fudge their expense reports, or cheat on their spouses? Because in the right circumstances, why not? A policeman once told me that (sadly only) 10% of the population would NEVER cheat, 10% would cheat no matter what… and 80% would cheat given the right conditions.

Maybe that’s what happened to FM. Maybe the mystery is far simpler than imagined. Maybe he felt an itch one day, and he scratched. Then he just kept on scratching.

It is pure speculation to think about the motives of someone who cheats but it looks like that every impostor, who gains reputation with unreal achievements, feels partly real satisfaction in this illusory world. In any case, as a teenager I've asked coaches and teachers in my athletics club or in school about their PBs. It's quite normal and it just looks better when you're a good trainer or teacher with first class PBs. It is quite possible that our "world record holder" is often asked by the Loyola-Kids and this puts some pressure on him, surrounded by so many athletic people, that he began to legitimize himself with his "results".

PR Form wrote:

Start contacting LAM and LBM race sponsors. A

deluge of calls and emails to their big daddy may motivate a race director to DQ a runner.

This. We are on the biggest running messge board in the world. If we can't collectively bring L.A to do the right thing then nothing can.

Deluge them with emails and publicity and they will have to act. An email with links to this thread and Doubler's articles to The L.A Times might act as something of an ethical laxative. I am sure news outlets will be interested in picking this up, seeing as it's a putative "world recorde holder" caught with his hand in the cookie jar. And a "world record holding" doctor to boot.

Someone should start with LA Times sportswriter Eric Sondheimer who has breathlessly covered Loyola HS XC and it’s coaching staff with fawning coverage for years.

Doping is actually less egregious in my book, though still not excusable. Dopers at least have the "excuse" that "everyone is doing it", whether they actually believe that or not. Certainly lots of people are doing it and lots of winner have done it, as evidenced by a multitude of doping busts over the years.

However, there is no rationale to excuse yourself because "everyone is course cutting". Would almost be cartoon-like if that were true. Hundreds of photos of people crossing timing mats and completely empty course the rest of the way with deflated spectators and balls of tumbleweed blowing around.

Course cutting to "win" something, is at the very worst end of cheating. Just above deliberating sabotaging your opposition. IMO.