SprintTriathlon wrote:
Even if I cannot see you (because you are a ghost) I will try to follow you GhOfI.
I am very much in favor of:
Any activity (even standing in contrast to sitting) give positive outcome, surely
a more vigorous activity result in more positive results, but you always try to prosper
at the stage of life and condition you find yourself at.
Absolutely believe that. It seems reasonable to me that one moves from less vigorous to more vigorous with good mechanics.
They say here that the 800 m is the furthest you can go on pure hate, but I did find some of that in my 2 hour run the other day. They need to readjust their model.
re: walking, generally no. Exception being ski walking or mountain racing.
Ski walking is hiking fast uphill with XC ski poles, simulating the classical technique. If you live in a mountainous region you can go 30-60 minutes continuously and climb 1000 or 2000 feet, 3000+ if you are at a large ski area like Vail. Skiers often do 3-4 hour workouts over all sorts of terrain, and they ski walk up the steep uphills, and run the rest of the time. They generally don't count miles, but hours/minutes.
I've raced Pikes Peak ascent and much of the last 2 miles was hiking as fast as I could because running was less efficient at 13,000-14,000 feet. I still counted the effort as a 13.2 mile run, not 11 miles of running and 2.2 of hiking.
Whatever. It's not a big deal and puzzling why some would make a deal out of it in the first place.
Great thoughts! Thanks to those who contributed to the discussion. Any additional opinions?
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
In regards to walking as viable training, it is not just the activity, but how it is implemented.
Sixty year olds training as if one is still in the 50s is great if you can do it. Why do the age groups thin as we get older? Infirmities of age, of which I am an example. But also refusing to adapt to the aging process is an important factor. Maintaining proper weight is a key along with enthusiasm to train. Strength training be it resistance and weight training have been proven to be beneficial to the 60+ population. These factors are often discussed.
What is not discussed as frequently is biomechanics. Incorrect running posture just to “run” increases the opportunity for injury. Sloppy running increases the injury potential as one ages. Logging running miles is just one component in a proper training program and increasing in importance as one moves from the 800 meters to the marathon. At what point does increasing volume become counterproductive? When I was a young man training for the marathon it was probably 140 miles a week. As a 68 year old training for races from 800 meters to 5,000 meters it is somewhere south of 50 miles, I suppose.
Most of us can construct a hard training session, be it 800 meters or a marathon. What constitutes an easy day, especially for a 60 year old or someone younger that continues to fight injury? The benefits of biking, elliptical, cross country skiing or swimming are well documented. But what about a mixture of walking and running? A substitute to another session pounding your joints and connective tissue? Perhaps 3 miles undertaken with quality form, running straightaways and walking the curves, is superior to 3 miles of sloppy road work. I would consider sloppy running to be sitting in the bucket, poor foot plant, center of gravity behind belly button, etc.; really anything that creates a chain of bad biomechanics, resulting in joint and muscular stress.
So when you pound your chest logging your running miles is it a plus or a minus? Is it a false sense of security, your Linus blanket? Or is something different that gets you to the starting line healthy and ready to race?
Igy
I'm not sure what you mean by "slopping running" wrt older runners? In the Master's club I've belong to for decades, I've seen guys (and gals) in my age group on up (58+) who don't have the prettiest running form but have been running for decades with that form and very seldom are injured and keep on logging in the miles (and races) year after year. Conversely, I've seen some biomechanically blessed runners in our club who have nothing but constant injuries with some quitting the sport due to frustration.
IMO, I would say it's more about injury propensity & history (some genetics involved there), weight (you're right about that), body type (either thank or blame your parents. Lol) and physiological limitations (bull-legged, pigeon toed, flat fleet, etc - all genetics), and intensity of workouts and races as we get older (over training & racing).
And frankly, aging just like anything else affects older runners differently. And all avid runners who continued to train well into their 60s have to know what they're doing or they wouldn't be there in the first place. They probably know their body better than any sports medicine doctor could analyze. They all have through trial & error found a routine that works for them and I would imagine they know when to back off from over training or altogether shut it down periodically and rest up.
But injuries are huge in this age game. Considering this is a high-impact activity, chronic injuries are probably going to affect most aging runners at one time or another. And acute injuries involving tendon, ligament & muscle tears (and lower back injuries from trauma) can be challenging. Though I was never built for running (short & squatty with flat feet. Lol), I was able to manage ~40 mpw and race year round (mostly 5 & 10s) in my 20s, 30s & 40s with minimal injuries. But I was addicted to speedwork & hard racing for the endorphin rush. Never backing off in my 50s, the big time ruptures & strains (Achilles, patellar tendon, posterior tIbial tendon, hamstrings ) started to occur over a span of several years. And trying to run through some of the injuries didn't help matters either and caused re-tears in some cases (those damn endorphins!). Also, add a MV accident where a knucklehead texting blew a red light broadsiding me (while driving home from race nonetheless!) causing a significant back and upper body injuries. And torn tendons, ligaments, muscles, etc. don't act or respond the same as uninjured tissue and invariably can lead to OA if a joint is involved. So, if aging runners can avoid acute tears & strains, any chronic injuries can be more easily managed with the right rehab & modification.
Walking is great and I've have to add more walking in place of run days lately (which is only 3 days a week anyway). And 4 days a week at the gym for spin bike cross training, strength training & rehab excercises (I'm in a constant state of rehab. ?) gets monotonous afterwhile. The only thing I don't like about walking is the slower pace and lower heartrate (and lower perceived rate of exertion) where I don't get those endorphins and end up feeling unfulfilled. So, I'm experimenting with some speed walking/race walking and see if it elevates the HR and more towards maybe 75 or 80% of my VO2max
Anyone here incorporate RW as part of your training?
Interestingly, this study showed RW demonstrated 46% lower impact forces in comparison to running:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313625727_Is_Race_Walking_Lower_Impact_Than_RunningOGII and Michael Rohl are great examples of how great walking can be for running. I mean, Rohl can walk at, what, 6:30 pace?? Or at least damn fast.
As to why we argue these things, I guess, in truth we’ve all been conflicted at times on how/why/what training actually is.
I know I’m repeating myself but there are no road-maps at 50 and 60 +, you gotta find your own way. No, I no longer accept as gospel any books written on running. They are for children. Childhood ends at 50 and I’ve found that sh*t gets real at 60.
I am in general agreement Squatty. In regards to sloppy running, it would be slogging around just to get your miles in. As opposed to running with a purpose or a goal in mind. Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with having no purpose, but the genesis of the discussion was whether walking should be counted as training volume. My standard warm-up on a hard day was 2 miles running. Three months ago that was too much, so I would alternate runnning 1,000 meters and walking 100 meters for the distance. Same thing with the meat of the workout where I was walking the recovery interval. Same for the cool-down where I alternated running 100 meters and walking 100 meters. Today I did a six mile track session running the entire way. So for me it is all about progression.
In regards to race walking poster Mike Rohl was a national champion and nine time U.S. team member. His wife was also a national caliber race walker and won the W50 mile at USATF Masters Indoor. I am sure they could respond to your question.
Igy
I wonder if you'd get more endorphins out of walking if you raised the elevation on the treadmill, and in the process increase your heart rate, too? I did count (as cross training) a 1.5 mile walk on the treadmill a couple days ago while waiting for my car to get a new tire, as I did not have much time (and it was a windchill of BELOW Zero in Iowa City).
Congrats, SCgal, on double wins and a team win, very awesome!
I am up to a whopping 9 miles for my long run, getting ready for the 1/2 marathon in mid-May. Last two weeks of 27 and 26 total miles, and a cross train day each week of 35 to 50 minutes. Need to get back on the weights, too.
Our time in Iowa City was fun, until I was nearly sideswiped by some gas-guzzling SUV that swung into my lane without any concern that I was already there. Forced me into the curb, ruined my tire, and they did not even stop to see why my wife had jumped out in distress. My honking did not seem to affect them, either, very callous non-response. Guess they were afraid they might be held responsible for driving into the lane that I happened to inhabit, duh!
On the plus side, my wife was one of several former U of Iowa basketball players honored during the women's game, being brought out onto the court, a reception, modest gifts, etc. Plus we worked out at the new-to-us U of IA Rec Center, a fabulous building, I think I heard 20,000 sf, 3 stories, indoor track, full-sized pool, etc., etc. Awesome place.
A few years ago I had to have surgery for prostate cancer. I had to walk a lot as part of rehab until I could slowly resume running. About the same time my wife, who is not a runner took up an interest in doing trail races. Long story short, I still do walk runs with my wife at her pace, which averages out to about 15 minutes a mile. We do a lot of run 2 minutes, walk 3 minutes at her pace. We live in the forgotten mountains north of Los Angeles so we are doing this at 8000 feet every weekend all summer long. Our long "run" is usually 3-4 hours at this pace and I became very fit doing this with just a little speed work thrown in once in a while. I think walking or hiking up steep hills is very beneficial and it seemed to help me a lot. If the rain and snow ever quit, we are planning on starting the same routine again this year at altitude. For now, we head down to Bakersfield to get away from everyone and do the same routine along the Kern River.
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
In regards to sloppy running, it would be slogging around just to get your miles in. As opposed to running with a purpose or a goal in mind.
Getting your miles in is itself a goal with a purpose.
Balian wrote:
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
In regards to sloppy running, it would be slogging around just to get your miles in. As opposed to running with a purpose or a goal in mind.
Getting your miles in is itself a goal with a purpose.
Perhaps, or just a habit, which could generate good results or poor results. Point being not a always a neutral purpose.
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
Balian wrote:
Getting your miles in is itself a goal with a purpose.
Perhaps, or just a habit, which could generate good results or poor results. Point being not a always a neutral purpose.
Nobody goes out to put in mileage without a goal or purpose in mind. Whether or not the mileage is appropriate for the goal/purpose is debatable, but not the lack of purpose.
I get it. Like the folks peddling a spin bike reading a magazine. I suppose the goal is multitasking, dubious value however. OK.
...pedaling....they could be peddling as well....
Coyote Montane wrote:
re: walking, generally no. Exception being ski walking or mountain racing.
Ski walking is hiking fast uphill with XC ski poles, simulating the classical technique.
By now this discussion has pulled a glute muscle, that's how overworked it is. As it happens, though, today was my XT day in the cycle and I could not bear the thought of another 30 minutes on the elliptical. So I decided to walk uphill on the TM instead. I set the incline to 12 degrees and added speed until my HR was 130bpm.
In my spreadsheet I didn't count the 2.11 miles I walked, for the reasons others pointed out: you count mileage to make sure you aren't beating up your legs, and that's not an concern with a zero-impact activity like uphill walking. But the 30 minutes of easy activity is useful in calculating what % of my weekly training was NOT easy (i.e., medium-hard), so I counted that.
Poor Alex Trebek! How are we going to survive the winters without him?
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
Balian wrote:
Getting your miles in is itself a goal with a purpose.
Perhaps, or just a habit, which could generate good results or poor results. Point being not a always a neutral purpose.
Well...it depends Ghost if you're competitive running or fitness running. Competition runners of all ages are pretty obsessed with their training e.g., counting mileage to the centimeter, precise intensity & volume of weekly speedwork, LRs done to a pecific pace & distance, etc. It's all about racing i.e. performance-based training for these cats...no surprises?there. For example, that's all the young bucks argue & get hostile about ad nauseam on the mainframe threads (man...these young cats literally annihilate each other over who's training program is the best!).
Fitness runners come in all ages and sizes and are mainly interested in the health benefits attributed to running. And some of us old bucks have retired from the stress/burnout and injuries of competitive running and transitioned to fitness running. As an old guy with OA my runs are basically survival runs; survive the run without too much post-activity pain..?I haven't counted mileage for years now. A target of 45 - 50 mins of mostly continuous running 3 or 4 days week, and msybe one day week of a 30 min up tempo continuous run is the calling now. I save all the hard core VO2max intensity stuff for the eliptical and spinner at the gym.
FWIW, as aging folks, we need lot more than just running for optimal health & wellness:
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/fitness/exercise/article/exercise-key-active-agingA quick update on my training while I have a few free minutes at work (still blocked).
Mon. 18th feb. 78 minute kayak.
Tue. 97 minute mountain bike ride.
Thu. 17 km trail run 410 metres elevation gain 1 hour 44 minutes.
Fri. . Fast 24 minutes mtn bike into 5 km hilly trail run 23. 20 last 2 km in 8.20. Fast 40 minute mtn bike ride back home.
Sat. 50 minute road bike ride, 2 flats no extra spare 6 km walk home.
Sun. 45 minute mtn bike ride, 35 min trail run 30 minute hike 12 min faster trail run, 30 minute ride home.
Mon. Flew interstate.
Tue. 80 minutes hiking.
Wed. 6 km hiking soft sand into 10 km run in 56 mins last couple of kms on soft sand. 6 km trail hiking with my wife.
Thu. 2 hrs 15 mins soft sand hiking.
Sat. 10 km run in 52 mins.
Sun. 14 km run on soft sand in 90 minutes.
Mon. Flew home. 60 minute kayak session.
Tue. 2 hour mtn bike ride.
Wed. 15.5 km run 580 metres elevation gain 1hour 40 minutes.
Thu. 60 minute kayak session.
MikeL - glad that you got of the minivan incident in Iowa City with no more than a damaged tire. And that you are moving toward your half marathon training pretty well with running and cross training. Congrats to your wife on the recognition award, they were first generation athletes.
That's where I started running in high school, in fact at the old indoor track (then fairly new) with the funky roof that looked kind of weird and apparently never worked right, was where I started running a bit. In high school I'd sometimes do 3 miles in the outside lane, just to see how it felt. I have only been back once in 20 years, and that was just for a day and have only visited a couple times briefly since the mid-80s. My friend from there visited the other week. I should go back some day.
Let's Get To The Bottom Of This wrote:
FWIW, as aging folks, we need lot more than just running for optimal health & wellness:
To push back on this a bit, the article does not say what you say it says.
If you're a competitive runner, yes, of course you need to add strength training and other things (like heel dips, which I'm doing right now) to reduce your risk of injury.
But as Amby Burfoot, Pete Magill, et al., never tire of pointing out, for health and wellness running checks all the boxes. As a weight-bearing exercise it covers the strength aspect. Yoga and tai chi are nice but redundant. You could do niko niko the rest of your days and be fine.
My big monster on my back is the arthritis in my left hip . At 63 this has turned my sub 1:30 half marathons and 18:40 5ks in my late 50s to a wonderful memory. I can run some these days funny uphill running albeit slow 11 min miles makes for a nice afternoon. But for fitness now the hard days on the bike is the only way endurance wise . I basically get nothing out of the running fitness wise at 11 mins a mile . But hey 100 calories a mile :) I try to get 40 miles a week . 200 miles now on the bike . Time moves on , funny I run with the slow hobby joggers :)) but they are out there in their fancy gear ! I still look like a homeless man in the cold when running and on the bike . Old school forever .
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
I get it. Like the folks peddling a spin bike reading a magazine. I suppose the goal is multitasking, dubious value however. OK.
How does reading while spinning reduce the value of the exercise?