former U.S.M.C. rifleman wrote:
physics defiant wrote:
OCR athletes are by far the best all around athletes with what one would hope is "Military" type fitness.
Surprising that the Army doesn't try to recruit from those ranks.
Have you seen first half of movie, Full Metal Jacket, 1987? Confidence Course in movie is actual Confidence Course in Marine Corps basic training.
That's not saying much. Unless people actually raced the course instead of waiting in line and taking big breaks.
Agreed that cardio is important, but it's not the end all be all. I know "every Marine a rifleman" but that's junk pogs tell themselves. Your 0311s will have better fitness than pogs and that's true in basically all branches.
This isn't directed at you specifically, more the running is the most important camp.
Combat fitness doesn't care about your 2/3 mile, push ups, whatever. You've got to be able to make movements and not be so smoked that you can't effectively fight once you're there.
If you can run well, then you can probably ruck but only if your build is not that of a typical distance runner. The really scrawny guys that can also ruck with (60+ lbs) combat loads are few and far between.
Think about it, if you're 130 lbs, how well are you going to be able to move with 60lbs+ of gear with you? PT test are outdated, sure but it's hard to get a great model that fits everyone. Combat doesn't have sliding standards and some guy isn't going to weigh less because you're a female.
A bit off topic, but I'm curious to hear people's perspectives on the different scales for women while allowing them into combat roles.
It's not unlike coaching, one program may work well for a certain discipline, but not well for others. I personally believe that for combat roles if you're scoring 270+ on pt tests, then your overall fitness is satisfactory. For support people, I don't know that their fitness is overly important aside from the discipline aspect.
physics defiant wrote:
former U.S.M.C. rifleman wrote:
Have you seen first half of movie, Full Metal Jacket, 1987? Confidence Course in movie is actual Confidence Course in Marine Corps basic training.
That's not saying much. Unless people actually raced the course instead of waiting in line and taking big breaks.
When you are a four star admiral or a four star general or Secretary of Army or Secretary of Navy, you can seriously evaluate if bringing in 25 to 35 year old O.C.R. gals or guys is a wise idea.
What are OCR gals or guys?
former U.S.M.C. rifleman wrote:
physics defiant wrote:
That's not saying much. Unless people actually raced the course instead of waiting in line and taking big breaks.
When you are a four star admiral or a four star general or Secretary of Army or Secretary of Navy, you can seriously evaluate if bringing in 25 to 35 year old O.C.R. gals or guys is a wise idea.
I guess there wouldn't be much point if they were constantly waiting around for the rest of the team to show up.
wait, that military marine that is 5'10, 180 lbs, wearing boots, and only doing 20 minutes of cardio a day cant knock out 3 6:30 miles in a row?
(insert surprised pikachoo here.)
This is a silly thread. The military represents society even though only a small percentage of the population have served in or are serving in the military. For male runners the only data I could find (old let's run link) says that 20:10 is at the 5th percentile or top 1 out of 20 male runners. Why would someone expect Marines to on average be as fast as 1 out of 20 males from the broader population? I went to West Point and served in the Army for 6 years and completed Airborne school among other things. Whether at jump school or Ranger School or Delta Team tryouts members of the military are more fit than your average male of a similar age but they aren't superhuman. Typical pace for a PT formation run of 3 - 5 miles would probably be about 8:30 minutes/mile. What is superhuman or at least impressive is getting through Ranger School on 3 hours sleep/night and 2,000 calories while carrying a 40 lbs. rucksack over 15 miles of mountains
jecht wrote:
What are OCR gals or guys?
Professional obstacle course participants. The other poster believes U.S. Army should recruit these individuals.
former U.S.M.C. rifleman wrote:
jecht wrote:
What are OCR gals or guys?
Professional obstacle course participants. The other poster believes U.S. Army should recruit these individuals.
Some of the top guys are Army already.
The way they set it up in 1776 is there's the American Way of Life for us and the Cave Man Way of Life for U.S. Marines. It's not going to change in 2020.
Oil Crashing wrote:
The way they set it up in 1776 is there's the American Way of Life for us and the Cave Man Way of Life for U.S. Marines. It's not going to change in 2020.
Brits had to know a revolution was pending. U.S. Army, U.S.M.C. and U.S. Navy all began in 1775. I have know idea what you're trying to say with caveman statement.
Starving and beating teenage boys like dogs to convert them into best crazed hand-to-hand combat killers in the world I guess is necessary to keep America free.
Let me first say that I have the utmost respect for anyone wearing the uniform.
In the US Army, the run test is (or, it was when I was briefly in) 2 miles. Passing was 16 minutes for men. Out of shape, I would cruise through in 11-something and score in the highest quintile (that's how they scored it). I was confused as to why guys were running 14 or 15 min. Though I had run track, I wasn't a distance runner (50 sec 400m in HS) so I thought my 2-mi was slow. Since the Army required that everyone was fit, I couldn't understand why the standard was anything below 16:00. To me at the time, it seemed like a lot of guys were terribly unfit.
Looking back, I didn't really have the full perspective. As others have pointed out, many here on this board can do a 7 or 8 min/mi pace with little effort. But that's not true for everybody, and a non-runner can certainly be fit enough to perform duties in the Army with a sub-16 2-mi. Or, as a Marine, there is no need for a sub-20 3-mile in order to be sufficiently fit to perform Marine duties.
The US Marines are the toughest soldiers in the world ever.
Co-Flounder wrote:
A marine’s job is to neutralize the enemy. That can be done with a well aimed rifle. A sub 15 minute skinny 5k runner couldn’t outrun a marine with a rifle.
Sure they can. All they have to do is start running before the marine is within 3km (maximum elite sniper range) and the marine can do absolutely nothing and has to call up an airplane or a helicopter to help.
The best riflemen in both the US and Mexican militaries chased Cochise and his band around for years and years and never defeated him. You can't shoot what you can't catch!
In 1981 the marines beat up my Dad at Paris Island and threw him out crippled with no medical benefits. He still limps.
In my mind, the quintessential Marine is built like a linebacker, which is what was necessary to kick Tojo's derriere hand to hand on Iwo Jima. Not many linebackers can run a 20 minute 5K.
One of my dearest high school buddies and teammates was a scrawny runner-and not the quintessential Marine. Danny joined the Corps and it transformed his life. He could run a sub 17 5K at altitude. I'm sure he was knocking on 16 at San Diego where he went through basic.
Marine Corps training gave Danny a focus and a discipline he never had prior. He grew up in a very rough home, with an illiterate alcoholic father, and no real future other than the military. He told me recently that enlisting in the Marines was the smartest thing he ever did. He's now an elementary school teacher in Oregon.
The U. S. Marines Corps since the beginning has always been left to their own ways inherited from the Teutonic Knights.