Woman runs 2:42:55 at Houston Marathon, turned down for Olympic Trials because she was in Corral B

scam_watcheroo wrote:

acookrunner wrote:

I don't have any idea what her intentions were and haven't posted anything about that. I'm just saying it's against NYRR rules.

Yes, based on what is seen publicly this would be against NYRR rules. I just want this to be handled calmly and with the intent to educate rather than humiliate and publicly shame her forever. I did not feel comfortable with what happened to that previous girl in a similar situation and I do not feel comfortable with what I can see that others will try to do.

Yeah, I totally agree, I don't think she should be publicly shamed. It's a shame that she posted on Strava when she wasn't registered though.

acookrunner wrote:

Yeah, I totally agree, I don't think she should be publicly shamed. It's a shame that she posted on Strava when she wasn't registered though.

Yes, it's unfortunate that she did not appear to have the foresight to run under her own name since she is clearly fast with 3rd place and it would only benefit in her every way with this OTQ. Perhaps someone can reach out to Erin to come post here with what happened.

acookrunner wrote:

scam_watcheroo wrote:

Yes, based on what is seen publicly this would be against NYRR rules. I just want this to be handled calmly and with the intent to educate rather than humiliate and publicly shame her forever. I did not feel comfortable with what happened to that previous girl in a similar situation and I do not feel comfortable with what I can see that others will try to do.

Yeah, I totally agree, I don't think she should be publicly shamed. It's a shame that she posted on Strava when she wasn't registered though.

Totally agree with y’all, and no matter what I hope this doesn’t turn into a witch hunt. She made a mistake that many well intentioned runners and good people have made... there’s no indication she cheated, wronged anyone (no idea if she claimed age group prizes, etc) or anything like that... but there’s a chance that Houston saw that she had bandited the race when looking at her Strava profile (“hmm.. she has a half marathon race, why didn’t she just submit this??”) and didn’t make any effort to accommodate her. In the original story Houston comes off as the worst actor in all of this. But they have had reason to be less sympathetic.

Free_the_thigh wrote:

BraveyNation brought to you by Champion wrote:

Because USATF doesn't want to tacitly encourage or deal with hordes of course-cutters turning in OTQ chip times. USATF doesn't have the resources to vet hundreds of entry submissions, holding to gun times is the simplest route to ensuring integrity.

I ran Houston from the A corral, I'm way slower than this woman and submitted a half time I ran at MP. She didn't want in the OT badly enough if she didn't prepare better to take her best shot and line up factors to her advantage when she easily could.

What?

How does allowing chip times result in hordes of course cutters?

That is so stupid

Yes, that you don't see it is truly stupid. As if people aren't known to cut courses to get chip times merely for BQ. I'm never surprised at the obtuse individuals to be found on LetsRun.

totes agree wrote:

but there’s a chance that Houston saw that she had bandited the race when looking at her Strava profile (“hmm.. she has a half marathon race, why didn’t she just submit this??”) and didn’t make any effort to accommodate her. In the original story Houston comes off as the worst actor in all of this. But they have had reason to be less sympathetic.

I highly doubt Houston looked at Strava to decide which elites to admit. The most probable and simplest explanation of what Houston did is just what the articles said, bureaucracy.

scam_watcheroo wrote:

totes agree wrote:

but there’s a chance that Houston saw that she had bandited the race when looking at her Strava profile (“hmm.. she has a half marathon race, why didn’t she just submit this??”) and didn’t make any effort to accommodate her. In the original story Houston comes off as the worst actor in all of this. But they have had reason to be less sympathetic.

I highly doubt Houston looked at Strava to decide which elites to admit. The most probable and simplest explanation of what Houston did is just what the articles said, bureaucracy.

Not elites... allow her into the A corral which required a 50 min 10k. Perhaps it’s just that Houston was being dumb, but articles talks about how her coach sent her Strava workouts to the rd.

There are marathon majors that will unofficially look at your Strava workouts to move you up in waves and corrals, so it’s not crazy.

Les wrote:

2:54 is not "extremely close" to 2:45. I don't believe any runner given exceptions were 9 minutes slower than the qualifying standard. She should be in the Trials, but I blame the coach for entering her in the wrong marathon. He knew that gun times were the only acceptable qualifying time. He also probably knew that no race director is going to place a runner with no marathon track record in the A corral strictly on the athlete's coach's word. Big time mistake. The coach should own up.

I think most reasonable race directors in the USA would take a top 10 finisher at the most recent NCAA regionals in cross country (a runner with a verifiable FAT 16:17 5k PR) into the sub 4hr marathon corral, even as a late entry. This is an elite runner outside any of the marathon majors. A person with good marathon training with a 16:17 5k PR should be able to run a sub 2:40 marathon. I think we need to rank the blame as follows

1. The race director [should have let her in corral A, what a bone head to not want the best people upfront in your race. Make exceptions for exceptional circumstances.]

2. The athlete/coach for not running a 10k somewhere before the qualifying window [All she needed was a 51 min 5k for corral A! That's an easy jog for this athlete, that could be done at any race with literally zero days notice without disrupting her training schedule]

3. USATF. Not granting her into the trials is unfortunate, an exception could have been made. I think if her chip time was sub 2:40, they probably would have granted an exception, even with the big difference in gun time. There are so many women in this field so I can see the argument either way.

can you imagine a thread this long about a runner missing the 1500 trials with a 4:38? That's the equivalent.

Whether it’s her fault or put the blame on her coach for not educating and following procedure for Houston and the Trials- you simply don’t go bib mule and esp if you’re a contender for awards. She just risked being permanently banned from NYRR events, and she’s only 23. Then he tried to submit her Strava to Houston, they probably looked up the results and didn’t see her name, and therefore she wasn’t verified. Houston has an Athlete Development Program- all she had to do was run a sub 1:25 half under her own name, which she could have easily done between Oct-Dec.. As much as people want to side with her, she’s learning some hard lessons on race etiquette and following procedure.

to be more specific wrote:

Whether it’s her fault or put the blame on her coach for not educating and following procedure for Houston and the Trials- you simply don’t go bib mule and esp if you’re a contender for awards. She just risked being permanently banned from NYRR events, and she’s only 23. Then he tried to submit her Strava to Houston, they probably looked up the results and didn’t see her name, and therefore she wasn’t verified. Houston has an Athlete Development Program- all she had to do was run a sub 1:25 half under her own name, which she could have easily done between Oct-Dec.. As much as people want to side with her, she’s learning some hard lessons on race etiquette and following procedure.

I bet like most runners, she's never even heard of "bib mule". That's only something LR dorks like us have heard of. She didn't even keep it off her strava to hide it.

I doubt even 1% of runners have heard of a bib mule.

You have the wrong terminology. "Bib mule" is when you run with someone else's bib so they can claim the result. There is no evidence of that as shown in Erin's Strava claiming the result. What you are looking for is "bib swapping".

And for the NYRR rules, it is not a permanent ban but rather next event or up to a year:

This is a much saner policy and there is discretion, which I prefer over the lifetime bans that others advocate for. I have never been a supporter of lifetime bans. Even if you were to dope it would only be a temporary ban of a few months to a few years. Why are less severe issues so often punished with lifetime bans?

Ok, bib swap- who advised her to do that, and is it really a kosher thing to submit a Strava link instead of an actual race result for qualification? Let’s hope all of this is a stern lesson for her and her coach. It’s not acceptable for someone at her talent level to bib swap and then make a big deal out of being denied entry by Houston and USATF for the Trials, when she had plenty of time to get an actual result to be bumped up.

She cheated in a road race and then posted about it on Strava and then submitted Strava to Houston.

She deserves some punishment.

Not being allowed in the Trials seems about right.

colorunner123 wrote:

Corral B started 13 minutes after Corral A. The Houston Marathon organizers essentially held her back for 13 minutes, guaranteeing her gun time would be over 2:45. Just let this woman into the Trials, for goodness sake.

Do they have video evidence from the start to finish? Could any type of video evidence help her?

And good job Erin. Nice time.

Well this is an interesting plot twist. I agree that Erin was wrong to use someone else's bib in a race. It seems she jumped into a NY half marathon at the last minute. Perhaps she had a friend who registered for the race but was unable to run due to injury or illness. Erin may not have known that using another person's race number is against the rules, but she should have known.

I also agree with those who say that Erin could have easily qualified for Corral A at Houston. It seems she and her coach did not put much thought into it.

That said, she ran 2:42 at the Houston marathon. To me, that is the bottom line. Adding 13 minutes to her gun time simply because she was in the second wave makes no sense . As I see it, she ran an OT qualifier and should be let into the Trials. The Trials organizers can keep drawing a distinction between "chip time" and "gun time" but in this case he gun time was wholly inaccurate. She ran the race in 2:42. She finished 2 hours and 42 minutes after her wave started. So I still think the Trials organizers should make an allowance and let her in.

some punishment wrote:

She cheated in a road race and then posted about it on Strava and then submitted Strava to Houston.

She deserves some punishment.

Not being allowed in the Trials seems about right.

Cheated is too strong a word. It’s like saying you beat Magnus Carlsen but cheated because you were the janitor who passed by and sat down at the table for fun instead of a registered participant. The chess Nazis would castigate your lawlessness and ban you, but any smart person would get you into their next tournament.

Don’t like that analogy? How about the kid that throws a 9x mph fast ball in a cage at a baseball game. Oh it doesn’t count because the mound wasn’t regulation and.. no man, get that kid a tryout and a contract.

Trials organizers should be the smart ones. Did she run a marathon faster than the qualifying time? Strava link shouldn’t count because it’s not verifiable, but her Houston chip time should. If she ran the time, she should run the trials unless you want to hide behind rules to limit your competition. +1 isn’t going to break Atl Track Club’s bank, and it isn’t going to affect the top 3.

The bib swap is a red herring in this and almost every other case. People bib swap in meaningless races all the time and the vast majority don’t even read the stupid policies of overzealous race directors-ever-because they don’t care about archaic or draconian rules. They just want to run and are generally paying more than enough money to ignore any silliness about bib swapping. The only time a bib swap becomes an issue is when you get a different person something they don’t deserve (e.g. a husband running with his wife’s bib shouldn’t get overall female winner and let her claim it).

this is right wrote:

[quote]some punishment wrote:

The bib swap is a red herring in this and almost every other case. People bib swap in meaningless races all the time and the vast majority don’t even read the stupid policies of overzealous race directors-ever-because they don’t care about archaic or draconian rules. They just want to run and are generally paying more than enough money to ignore any silliness about bib swapping. The only time a bib swap becomes an issue is when you get a different person something they don’t deserve (e.g. a husband running with his wife’s bib shouldn’t get overall female winner and let her claim it).

If she used the Strava data from Staten Island to submit to Houston, I don't think it's a red herring, because it's possible that Houston knew she didn't have her own result for that race and chose not to move her based on that.

I’m super paranoid, and always race under a pseudonym