Vaporflys (presumably) crush it again. Produce amazing times in Valencia. 26:38 10k, A 2:03:51 and 4 2:18s!!!

The spring isn't the heel, the spring is the plate spanning the entire length of the shoe.

The East African myth was just epo wrote:

I’m sure the shoes help a lot, but the main ingredient is still the epo.

It is like the Lance era where everyone thought his secret to success was high cadence or bike aerodynamics.

Was EPO and doping going on in the sport before him? What about now? Same old same old but now many in the peloton have thyroid issues and asthma. Sickly lot those world class cyclists lol. What era was his? It was going on before him and continues to this day. His secrets were intelligent hard work, extremely high level bike skills, perhaps the highest competitive IQ ever, an extraordinary team, and his great leadership qualities. The rest was no secret and they were all doing it. He did what he had to do to win the game and the game was alot more than just the bike. A 2:06 runner is 2:04 with the shoes. People do realize the runner is great even without the shoes - don't they?

Vaporflys make runners fast just like Nike shoes made Michael Jordan a superstar.

For those that can’t tell, both statements are absurd. Only people who lose to a box of rocks at chess think Vaporflys are the only reason for faster times.

sbeefyk2 wrote:

Vaporflys make runners fast just like Nike shoes made Michael Jordan a superstar.

For those that can’t tell, both statements are absurd. Only people who lose to a box of rocks at chess think Vaporflys are the only reason for faster times.

Well very few people think the shoes are the only reason. After all, a 55 year old Kipchoge in the Vapors loses to a prime Bikila in his bare feet.

Wasn't Kipchoge also wearing Vaporflys in 2016? Or we just like to bring Rupp into every thread?

Force = mass * acceleration

A Runner's push off the toes is the force. The mass is not changing with the shoes. The carbon plate helps create a slightly higher acceleration caused by the plate being compressed to a curve, then snapping back straight upon toe off. This results in a greater force for the same energy output by the runner.

Example: 180 steps/min, 1.80m stride = 324m/min. Add a small force that increases the stride length to 1.82m = 327.6/min. A small difference, but when compounded over 2 hours the difference becomes 512m (over 90sec). This is just over a 1% difference and is in line with several scientific studies of the shoes.

Having a spring at the foot does not mean that your knee will just whack your chin with no forward movement. Take Oscar Pistorius / Blade Runner as an example. His leg from below the knee was essentially a spring. His energy expenditure was focused purely on moving his upper legs forward and back. The springs gave the forward and upward force needed to cover ground quickly and counteract gravity. Once his cadence was matched up to the force generated by his springs, he was able to move as fast as any other runner. Springs work. The Fly shoes are merely applying the same principle at lower spring rates.

PhysicsLesson wrote:

he carbon plate helps create a slightly higher acceleration caused by the plate being compressed to a curve, then snapping back straight upon toe off. This results in a greater force for the same energy output by the runner.

NO, NO, NO. Dig a little deeper into your kiddie physics and figure out what's wrong with this assumption. Think real hard about it. I already explained this.

hint: consider the supposed upward acceleration as putting the runner in a non-inertial frame of reference. Accelerated frames of reference are equivalent to what kind of force?

bloviating wrote:

Didn’t do your research? You? This site? Pat for the course. You’re either sensationalist trolls or a resource of information for this noche sport. These young Africans are now going mostly for the marathon and are training at a higher level than before. Valencia seems so be a fast course. However, let’s set all of that aside and post about the shoes. Yes, the shoes are great tech but do not discredit the ability and hard work behind these accomplishments.

Making some sense.

Bad Wigins wrote:

[quote]PhysicsLesson wrote:

he carbon plate helps create a slightly higher acceleration caused by the plate being compressed to a curve, then snapping back straight upon toe off. This results in a greater force for the same energy output by the runner.

Have you seen the carbon fiber plate in the VF/Next%? Test it out with a vice grip. That plate can only bend a very very small distance, and that only happens with people who are far more heavy than any elite runner. Carbon fiber is super stiff - it doesn’t bend. I would put say that any elite runner in the VF doesn’t produce any bend in the plate whatsoever. The plate is sandwiched between two very thick layers of cushion, which absorb most of the weight of the runner on each stride.

The plate just stabilizes the shoe cushioning. To characterize it as spring is laughable. Every running shoe made works in essentially the same mechanics.

END OF VF DEBATE

Ya I guess Kipchoge's gold is gone as well. Congrats to Feyisa Lilesa, your new gold medalist. Lucky for him he wore Zoom Streaks that day.

Carbon fiber CAN be bent, so can steel and concrete. The more rigid the material, the the better it bounces back to its original shape if not pushed to failure point. At maximum compression the foot has about 3x body weight force applied to the forefoot while the heel is being lifted by the upper leg. If you put a 300+ lb force on one of these plates, it WILL bend and it WILL push back to its original shape when pressure is released. The Nike plate is carbon infused nylon. The nylon is more flexible and better at distorting without failing. The carbon provides rigidity for snapping back to original shape.

Here are some videos that may help you understand.

Up until about 26s in this video, the carbon plate would have no damage and would return to its original position :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNKg9236DNg&vl=en

Here a guy crudely cuts a plate out of a fly shoe and can easily bend it (3:50 into it). He continues to the failure point, but shows clearly that with some bend it bounces back.

https://youtu.be/lixRKIvm-vw?t=230

And the difference between the VF plate and the many other rigid plates found in many other running shoes would be what?

Many records are set in Valencia each year - its a fast course.

The vaporfly has existed for 4 years at this point. All the record should have been shattered in Fall/Winter 2016 and no records could be bested.

Go Sweden Go wrote:

Lot of faster Euros who I never heard of. Who are Navarro, Santiago, Nilsson?? All ran 2:10 flat.

David Nilsson has been running well for a long time but this is the first great result in the marathon. He used to hold the Swedish record for the half (62:09) and now got it for the marathon. He is sponsored by Reebok so no Vaporflys.

No, David Nilsson ran in Vaporfly as well.

See the photo

StillCautious wrote:

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

In a few years this line of argument will be stupid when every major shoe brand has a racing shoe that pretty much is along the same lines and the price comes down to 150 bucks or so. So you can either stick with your old shoes forever, or adapt with the times and not be the only person wearing outdated racing shoes.

Which is sad because we don't know the long term effects yet. Wonder what the stats will eventually look like on the possible increase in Achilles or ankle issues? I just remember a quote of the day on here where a bio-mechanics person said something along the lines that eventually the chickens will come home to roost. It would be interesting to know if Rupp actually thought it was worth it since his surgery.

Have been running in 4% all my training runs since July.

Consistently 55-60 mpw. Have accumulated about 1400 miles on my training Vaporfly pair now.

No issues with ankles/Achilles now. Actually it's the opposite. I was able to train through my injured foot when in other shoes I wasn't able to ran at all.

Exactly. Some hypocrites are shouting only because they are sponsored by other companies. I wonder if they would have been so loud criticizing the shoe if it was made by their sponsor company.

Bad Wigins wrote:

UA Runner wrote:

It is like the Lance era where everyone thought his secret to success was high cadence or bike aerodynamics.

Aerodynamics is the secret to cycling success, whether it was his particular advantage or not.

Springy shoes is NOT a secret to running success, and it can't be, any more than bouncy tires on a bike. It's just not how the mechanics of running work.

Cyclists thoroughly understand the physics of their sport. Runners are not only thoroughly ignorant, they will fiercely defend their ignorance against all contrary information. They want to believe in magic shoes.

Let's see how these spring shoes work in the long jump, or even the high jump. Wagers?

Couldn't agree more.

DC Wonk wrote:

Have you seen the carbon fiber plate in the VF/Next%? Test it out with a vice grip. That plate can only bend a very very small distance, and that only happens with people who are far more heavy than any elite runner. Carbon fiber is super stiff - it doesn’t bend. I would put say that any elite runner in the VF doesn’t produce any bend in the plate whatsoever. The plate is sandwiched between two very thick layers of cushion, which absorb most of the weight of the runner on each stride.

The plate just stabilizes the shoe cushioning. To characterize it as spring is laughable. Every running shoe made works in essentially the same mechanics.

The fact that the plate only bends "a very very small distance" doesn't mean that it isn't a spring capable of storing and returning elastic energy. More like the opposite