Disgusting. Men should not be allowed to compete in women's sports.
Disgusting. Men should not be allowed to compete in women's sports.
crwnikeboy wrote:
Disgusting. Men should not be allowed to compete in women's sports.
I am going to make a proposal that allows all of us who believe that XY men should be barred from XX women's sports: contextual pronouns. If an XY person wants to be recognized as a woman, with pronouns of "she" "her" etc.; I will honor that wish as long as they stay out of women's sports, which I believe should be segregated along biological, not sociological lines. If an XY person chooses to participate in women's sports under any circumstance, I will use the male pronouns, "he" "him" "his" etc..
At this point, I will address June as "he".
This is something that I believe that we can apply fairly and consistently. Who is with me?
Actually, for society to demand any acknowledgement by others of a person's declared gender is speech suppression. If you disagree that a man is now a woman, just say so.
I'll tell you one thing for sure: That amygdala will remain male, dealing with stress physically rather than mentally, a clear advantage in "pain" sports like mid-d running.
Paul Pilkington wrote:
The NCAA rule that transgenders must be on hormones for a year is a farce. Birth control would fill that requirement. "Birth control contain man-made forms of 2 hormones called estrogen and progestin." Thus fulfilling the NCAA requirements. June could take birth control for a year and be allowed to race as a female according to the NCAA and never take another hormone again after that year.
At the very least the NCAA should adopt the same scientifically based standards that the IAAF, the IOC, and USATF have imposed. As I understand them they are, one year of having their testosterone below a certain level and testing to make sure their testosterone stays below that level during competition.
Evan if the NCAA adopted that, it’s still not a fair playing field. June has had 21 years to develop more muscle mass, lower body fat, greater bone density (thus the ability to run higher mileage) a greater VO2 max, narrower hips, and no menstrual cycle.
This should not be an issue of what gender someone wants to be. This should be an issue of fair play. I am all for June becoming a female if she chooses to. There are consequences in life when one makes a decision. June has made the decision to transgender to female. One of the consequences of that decision should be that she is not able to compete as a female. That would be fair play.
As NCAA coaches I believe we need to take a stand for our female student athletes. The NCAA and the coaches association has know that this was coming and has turned a blind eye, not wanting to deal with it. As coaches we need to make a stand and force the NCAA to adopt as a bare minimum the USATF standards regarding transgender student athletes.
Paul Pilkington
I think there is a lot of good ideas here, but let's just clarify something. While she will have many advantages from being born XY, still, hormone therapy, if done in the way described by the IAAF, also caries many disadvantages that reduce performance beyond the hormones themselves. The research done on this topic is fairly minimal, but so far everything we have suggests that for *distance* running XY women who undergo hormone therapy run the gender equivalent time to what they ran prior to therapy, meaning a 14:30 XY woman running in a mans race is going to run in the 16:30 range roughly. They still have many of the advantages you specify which are not corrected for from the therapy, but they also have several disadvantages that aren't well understood mechanistically. If it ends up being true that these disadvantages cancel out the advantages you talk about, I think they should be able to run.
This is getting weird.
He won a scholarship last year as Juniper Eastwood? How many fake names is he using?
https://i.imgur.com/TJDCIR9.png
https://twitter.com/umgrizzlies/status/991845147447971840
Here he is even using two names during one race:
"Chase Armstrong (400-meter hurdles), Jonathan Eastwood (1,500 meters) and Jacob Lamb (800 meters) all earned qualifying times on Thursday and competed in Friday’s finals in their respective events. Armstrong placed sixth with a time of 55.01 while Lamb came in eighth at 1:57.25. Eastwood improved his prelims time by more than 5 seconds, running at 3:53.55, and finishing seventh out of 12 runners.
“The last 150 meters of that race, June (Eastwood) went from ninth to seventh and really dug in the last 25 meters,” Schweyen said. “That was a gutsy race and was pretty fun to watch.”
i imagine she'll be much faster than that,if cece telfer is anything to go by.cece wasnt far off her pb's as a male,and she is on female hormones.june will slow,but by how much,can only be guessed at,at this stage.i think perhaps she may run close to 2 minutes flat,in the 800,4.04-4.03 in the 1500,and 15 minutes in the 5000.maybe a bit slower.given that shes young,she'll still improve.
pathfinder wrote:
track chick wrote:
Also why should the emphasis be on 'real women' to end this? Surely it's up to everyone? Who is causing the problem?
Well, men certainly can't do it. They'll be shot down for mansplaining, or their privilege, or whatever they're normally accused of.
LGBTQ community members? No way. If you think "real women" are ostracized for raising this issue, imagine LGBTQ memebers trying to stop this.
So only "real women" are left because of where we've come to in this society. Men need to shut up about women's issues and LGBTQ members need to toe the line or they're "against the cause".
In the end, June probably won't do much. She'll receive a lot of hate for being a middle of the pack runner. It's going to be overreactions on both sides.
I wouldn't have a go at men for mansplaining. Any help we can get is good as far as I'm concerned. I'm really glad wejo and rojo have highlighted this issue on the site.
track chick wrote:
I wouldn't have a go at men for mansplaining. Any help we can get is good as far as I'm concerned. I'm really glad wejo and rojo have highlighted this issue on the site.
I agree with the previous male poster that I think the male perspective on this is not as valuable as a female runner that would be either a teammate, competitor, or spectator of a MTF athlete.
Can you clarify? When you say “any help we can get is good,” I can’t tell how which side you are on. Are women’s athletics open to all women or only those that were born biologically female?
As a man, having June compete with other women does not bother me.
I don't think it is any less fair for an athlete to take hormones or other substances to get faster than it is for someone to take something to get “slower.” The NCAA should NOT be encouraging their athletes to manipulate their bodies in order to be eligible to compete in a certain category.
If a man can take hormones so he can compete with women, why can’t a woman take testosterone to improve her ability to compete against men?
I don’t care to hear about acceptable T-levels, and trans people suppressing hormones, etc. I’m of the opinion none of that matters, as I see artificial manipulation of one’s hormone levels, whether to lower or increase them, as cheating. If one side can cheat, the other should be able to, too.
Of course, I’d really prefer we stop this madness and go back to the common sense approach of men vs. men and women vs. women.
Mike Rozzi wrote:
This is getting weird.
He won a scholarship last year as Juniper Eastwood? How many fake names is he using?
https://i.imgur.com/TJDCIR9.pnghttps://twitter.com/umgrizzlies/status/991845147447971840
It is quite common for someone transitioning to try a few names in their first year as a woman. This is an irrelevant observation.
Some guys truly were meant to be girls. Shee looks very, in transgender community terms, "passable". Barely distinguishable from a cisgender girl.
bartholomew_maxwell wrote:
Some guys truly were meant to be girls. Shee looks very, in transgender community terms, "passable". Barely distinguishable from a cisgender girl.
I'm happy June will get on well as a woman, but we should focus on the impact this will have on the ncaa. She has already stolen a scholarship from a deserving girl who now may have to take student loan debt. Furthermore, lets focus on the future. Some decent boy runner, who could maybe get a bit of money at a third rate school could suddenly decide he's a girl and get a full ride to Stanford (or wherever else). I don't think June is going to be the breaking point, I think its going to be a team with 3-5 mtf athletes that finally gets the sport's governing bodies to act.
Good grief. Before spouting off every Fox news talking point, do yourself a favor and pick up a book. Modern conservative media has made it a radical left political act to learn just a little science, medical or otherwise.
Mike Rozzi wrote:
His running form:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs1ehXrFPmx/Already running with the girls a year ago:
https://i.imgur.com/sjYDDXY.pngThis one has to be a joke, right? Already the co-director of the women's resource center?
https://i.imgur.com/WTdPEKD.pngAs was to be expected, he is far left and claims to be an "activist". Interesting how his GF describes herself as a lesbian but dates someone with a dick.
jeff tallon wrote:
i imagine she'll be much faster than that,if cece telfer is anything to go by.cece wasnt far off her pb's as a male,and she is on female hormones.june will slow,but by how much,can only be guessed at,at this stage.i think perhaps she may run close to 2 minutes flat,in the 800,4.04-4.03 in the 1500,and 15 minutes in the 5000.maybe a bit slower.given that shes young,she'll still improve.
No one knows how much hormone therapy CeCe went through, or how much June went through. The NCAA has no requirements for testosterone levels like the IAAF does. That may be an apples to oranges comparison.
Without really touching on the competitive discussion I think it’s incredibly important to remember that we are talking about a real human being. Someone that’s going through a process that most people don’t understand and don’t want to understand.
Easy for some of you to sit back and anonymously bash the girl. Spewing hate. I don’t think you would dare put yourself out there publicly to be so narrow-minded and hateful.
All we can do is wait and see what transpires. The science doesn’t exist until we have real human beings to set a frame of reference. Although Caster and now June are controversial they also will be a tremendous asset to the science and likely set a frame of reference.
By the way there are far more transgendered women competing that don’t make the podium than do. It would be completely ignorant to think there aren’t a lot of unathletic males that transitioned and are competing. We only hear about the good ones of course.
I would hope that any of you that run across June this year will be respectful. Don’t be a dick. It’s a human being. If I’m at a meet and someone starts spewing hate I can promise you that I have zero problem confronting you.
Just one human to another.
~Kevin
SDSU Aztec wrote:
bartholomew_maxwell wrote:
What matters is the effort. If the 16:30 is more comfortable than the 14:30 then you can see that the athlete is holding back on purpose.
Why would she do that? How does sandbagging until the NCAA XC championships make any difference?
In your theory, if she deliberately runs badly and ends up way outside the medals then who actually cares? Just another number.
I am sure she will try her hardest otherwise she wouldn't register to compete at all.
Kevin Hadsell wrote:
Without really touching on the competitive discussion I think it’s incredibly important to remember that we are talking about a real human being. Someone that’s going through a process that most people don’t understand and don’t want to understand.
Easy for some of you to sit back and anonymously bash the girl. Spewing hate. I don’t think you would dare put yourself out there publicly to be so narrow-minded and hateful.
All we can do is wait and see what transpires. The science doesn’t exist until we have real human beings to set a frame of reference. Although Caster and now June are controversial they also will be a tremendous asset to the science and likely set a frame of reference.
By the way there are far more transgendered women competing that don’t make the podium than do. It would be completely ignorant to think there aren’t a lot of unathletic males that transitioned and are competing. We only hear about the good ones of course.
I would hope that any of you that run across June this year will be respectful. Don’t be a dick. It’s a human being. If I’m at a meet and someone starts spewing hate I can promise you that I have zero problem confronting you.
Just one human to another.
~Kevin
I will agree to the extent that we should tread lightly with the language we use and accept that this is s difficult transition for a real human. I’ll also accept that this isn’t about “ getting g a scholarship” or gaming the system, as some suggest. We do need to be respectful.
However, any suggestion that a human should be able to do whatever she wants without sparking a legitimate, important conversation is going to fall on deaf ears. The other women who line up at the start are also humans, with rights and feelings, hopes and dreams, and a lifetime of hard work behind them. Whether they be in this conference or high school girls in Connecticut they are humans who should be considered.
RossiCheated wrote:
Kevin Hadsell wrote:
Without really touching on the competitive discussion I think it’s incredibly important to remember that we are talking about a real human being. Someone that’s going through a process that most people don’t understand and don’t want to understand.
Easy for some of you to sit back and anonymously bash the girl. Spewing hate. I don’t think you would dare put yourself out there publicly to be so narrow-minded and hateful.
All we can do is wait and see what transpires. The science doesn’t exist until we have real human beings to set a frame of reference. Although Caster and now June are controversial they also will be a tremendous asset to the science and likely set a frame of reference.
By the way there are far more transgendered women competing that don’t make the podium than do. It would be completely ignorant to think there aren’t a lot of unathletic males that transitioned and are competing. We only hear about the good ones of course.
I would hope that any of you that run across June this year will be respectful. Don’t be a dick. It’s a human being. If I’m at a meet and someone starts spewing hate I can promise you that I have zero problem confronting you.
Just one human to another.
~Kevin
I will agree to the extent that we should tread lightly with the language we use and accept that this is s difficult transition for a real human. I’ll also accept that this isn’t about “ getting g a scholarship” or gaming the system, as some suggest. We do need to be respectful.
However, any suggestion that a human should be able to do whatever she wants without sparking a legitimate, important conversation is going to fall on deaf ears. The other women who line up at the start are also humans, with rights and feelings, hopes and dreams, and a lifetime of hard work behind them. Whether they be in this conference or high school girls in Connecticut they are humans who should be considered.
I’m definitely advocating that situations like this certainly warrant discussion. We are not going to learn and grow lest we have real examples to talk about. We just have to recognize that this is a real human being. That’s going through a difficult transition in life.
There’s no way in the world that this person would subject themselves to this amount of scrutiny and he just so they could have some sort of competitive advantage. It’s a person is transitioning in life that just so happens to be a good runner.
Kevin
bartholomew_maxwell wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
I wouldn't be so confident, as some are here, that Eastwood will disappear into the middle of the pack. Where trans athletes have been competing in women's sports we are generally seeing them on the podium.
I predict that they'll run fast enough to make qualifiers and maybe win a few races, but then blow away the field when the championship comes around.
Yeah, some runners run all-out in just about every race and others race to win. What's your point? Some posters refer to Eastwood as "he", you call him "they"?
Kevin Hadsell wrote:
RossiCheated wrote:
I will agree to the extent that we should tread lightly with the language we use and accept that this is s difficult transition for a real human. I’ll also accept that this isn’t about “ getting g a scholarship” or gaming the system, as some suggest. We do need to be respectful.
However, any suggestion that a human should be able to do whatever she wants without sparking a legitimate, important conversation is going to fall on deaf ears. The other women who line up at the start are also humans, with rights and feelings, hopes and dreams, and a lifetime of hard work behind them. Whether they be in this conference or high school girls in Connecticut they are humans who should be considered.
I’m definitely advocating that situations like this certainly warrant discussion. We are not going to learn and grow lest we have real examples to talk about. We just have to recognize that this is a real human being. That’s going through a difficult transition in life.
There’s no way in the world that this person would subject themselves to this amount of scrutiny and he just so they could have some sort of competitive advantage. It’s a person is transitioning in life that just so happens to be a good runner.
Kevin
In 1977, Renee Richards won, in court, the right to compete in professional women's tennis as a transgender woman. Just like now, people were predicting that it would be the end of the sport as there would be a horde of transgenders coming to dominate women's sports.
Some LRers like to claim there are 1,000 male players that could beat Sabrina. Assuming those players cycle through every 5 years there have 8,000 male players capable of becoming the #1 female player, were they to transgender, but even with significant financial incentives, there hasn't been even one TG mtf player since Richards. Not one.
There are people on LR who post that they could win a Gold Medal as a woman, so they should fake a transgendering, win some championships and prove me wrong.
