1500m WR is now 20 years old!

Coevett wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

You are simply putting words in my mouth. I've never said my experience of championship running means that I know more about doping in the 80s than anyone here. Nobody here has first hand experience of elites in the 80s unless they are Peter Coe or George Gandy.

The only time I've EVER referred to my own experiences is when talking about training, peaking for championships, and the entry/selection process around the British champs.

Everything else is a figment of your imagination. Just like this stuff you keep posting about me doping. Literally never even hinted at that. You just totally made it up, like 90% of your arguments.

I simply said I don't know of anyone including myself that was ever tested at a BMC meeting, that doesn't mean I doped. I've nothing to backtrack from.

You are actually mentally unwell and decided that I'm Dwain Chambers and started actually calling me Dwain. Something's wrong with you. No wonder you can't follow an argument.

Bull. You said that everybody dopes if they have an opportunity too, and you've admitted you had an opportunity at BMC meetings.

You've repeatedly used your experience as an athlete to imply that you have more knowledge on whether Africans like Tim are doping or not.

I'd say its 90% certain that you were the guy who was threatening me the other day. Either side of your post, within minutes of yours, even using the same language as you use (such as 'mate'). Either it was one of your split personalities or the troll that has been threatening me is trying to make it look as though he is you.

Star wrote:

1500m runner! wrote:

Why has it been 20 years? Better drug testing has stopped all the drug cheats?

No, that record happened to be ahead of it's time.

Since 1998, there have been 10 other performances that were faster than Morceli's record.

It's been 17 years since the second fastest time and 3 years since the 5th fastest.

I do not think the athletes are really any cleaner.

But if you look at race patterns, today's runners simply do not make many attempts at fast times every year.

El G went 3:30.00 or better 7 times in one year.

You don't even see anyone attempting 7 fast races at all in one year anymore. Not even sub 3:40.

Centro will put up one fast time a year, if that.

You saw a short period where Kiprop and Kiplagat would push each other in a few fast races each year.

Makloufi didn't make many fast attempts.

It's not drug testing, it's a different approach to the season.

In championship years, everyone does a couple of races to get sharp and then try to peak at the championship.

I don't know why off years like this don't produce more fast times. There is no reason to hold back.

Deanouk wrote:

I have to agree totally with Coevett on this one. There is a lot more evidence that Ngeny doped than the Brits of the 80’s.

For a start Ngeny beat El G , who was most certainly doped. The likelihood that the 3 fastest 1500/milers of all time happened to run in an era when EPO was undetectable, is highly unlikely.

Ngeny had an 800pb of 1:44 mid, yet could run that and another 200 on the end at the same pace!

He was part of the MacDonald/ Dieter Hogen stable that had some dubious history. Hogen was husband to Ute Pippig, the Marathon runner who was found with peds in her sample in the late 90’s. He was also a training partner and member is f same training group as Olaf Beyer and Juergen Straub back in the day; the former listed on Stasi files as part as f state sponsored doping programme.

There have been countless rumours that Ngeny failed a drug test for EPO at the Sydney Olympics in 2000, but was let off for fear of what such a ban would create. Of course I have never seen concrete evidence of this, but his last minute scratch from Kenya’s World Champs team in 2001 at the 11th hour and the subsequent car accident, that stopped him from training fully, although not enough to stop him running 3:33!?, does fit in with the possibility that he was warned about the doping violation but failed to stop doping.

I can’t think of a scenario where a serious injury can stop you running 3:28/3:43 in future, but is t bad enough to run a 3:33. His meteoric rise and then equally sudden decline and subsequent retirement is quite reminiscent of Komen. Again, this doesn’t represent proof, but there is certainly quite a bit of circumstantial evidence to make him more likely to have doped in comparison with Coe and Ovett.

Doped to the Max wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

I have to agree totally with Coevett on this one. There is a lot more evidence that Ngeny doped than the Brits of the 80’s.

For a start Ngeny beat El G , who was most certainly doped. The likelihood that the 3 fastest 1500/milers of all time happened to run in an era when EPO was undetectable, is highly unlikely.

Ngeny had an 800pb of 1:44 mid, yet could run that and another 200 on the end at the same pace!

He was part of the MacDonald/ Dieter Hogen stable that had some dubious history. Hogen was husband to Ute Pippig, the Marathon runner who was found with peds in her sample in the late 90’s. He was also a training partner and member is f same training group as Olaf Beyer and Juergen Straub back in the day; the former listed on Stasi files as part as f state sponsored doping programme.

There have been countless rumours that Ngeny failed a drug test for EPO at the Sydney Olympics in 2000, but was let off for fear of what such a ban would create. Of course I have never seen concrete evidence of this, but his last minute scratch from Kenya’s World Champs team in 2001 at the 11th hour and the subsequent car accident, that stopped him from training fully, although not enough to stop him running 3:33!?, does fit in with the possibility that he was warned about the doping violation but failed to stop doping.

I can’t think of a scenario where a serious injury can stop you running 3:28/3:43 in future, but is t bad enough to run a 3:33. His meteoric rise and then equally sudden decline and subsequent retirement is quite reminiscent of Komen. Again, this doesn’t represent proof, but there is certainly quite a bit of circumstantial evidence to make him more likely to have doped in comparison with Coe and Ovett.

There were seven (7) confirmed EPO positives from Sydney. There were apparently caught on the "off model," which "could catch athletes who had used EPO for up to about six weeks before the test. Instead, the IOC sanctioned the ''on model'', which detected EPO only if it had been used within the previous three days."

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/the-doping-secrets-never-to-be-revealed-20100918-15h36.html

Deanouk wrote:

Star wrote:

No, that record happened to be ahead of it's time.

Since 1998, there have been 10 other performances that were faster than Morceli's record.

It's been 17 years since the second fastest time and 3 years since the 5th fastest.

I do not think the athletes are really any cleaner.

But if you look at race patterns, today's runners simply do not make many attempts at fast times every year.

El G went 3:30.00 or better 7 times in one year.

You don't even see anyone attempting 7 fast races at all in one year anymore. Not even sub 3:40.

Centro will put up one fast time a year, if that.

You saw a short period where Kiprop and Kiplagat would push each other in a few fast races each year.

Makloufi didn't make many fast attempts.

It's not drug testing, it's a different approach to the season.

In championship years, everyone does a couple of races to get sharp and then try to peak at the championship.

I don't know why off years like this don't produce more fast times. There is no reason to hold back.

Running so many races at or close to world record pace was not something seen before the 90’s and hasn’t been seen since EL G retired.

How anyone cannot see this correlation between frequency of fast times and the prevalence of an undetectable endurance drug, is totally baffling to me.

ex-runner wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Bull. You said that everybody dopes if they have an opportunity too, and you've admitted you had an opportunity at BMC meetings.

You've repeatedly used your experience as an athlete to imply that you have more knowledge on whether Africans like Tim are doping or not.

I'd say its 90% certain that you were the guy who was threatening me the other day. Either side of your post, within minutes of yours, even using the same language as you use (such as 'mate'). Either it was one of your split personalities or the troll that has been threatening me is trying to make it look as though he is you.

You are simply 90% wrong. If you feel so certain of this then please message the moderators or wejo/rojo and have them look into it for you.

My experience has allowed me to make rational arguments as to why for example an athletes performance has declined in a season. Rather than being 'off the sauce' I simply put forward that their peak may be over.

I also said rather than Cheryuiot 'hiding from testers because kiprop got busted'.

It was more likely that Cheryuiot was having a mid season break because he had the commonwealths and so his season has been very long, it's what I would do. Even if Cheryuiot is doping, doing so in the middle of the season whilst holding the WL time would be unwise as testers can descend on him at any moment and the IAAF loves target testing.

These are things that knowledgeable coaches and athletes of ALL levels should be able to deduce for themselves. If you trained at college or coach athletes to a decent level you should understand training and coaching and peaking and the detrimental effects of maximal races vs training. Maybe a recreational masters runner who never competed at university age can't understand. Maybe it's just you.

To be honest, anyone with a brain could understand these arguments.

And I've never said I doped, please find somewhere where I've even hinted that I did and post it here for everyone to see.

If I did dope, I'd be 1000x more qualified to talk about it's effects and the processes and nuances in using it than you could ever imagine, and more qualified than anyone who has ever posted on this board, so it doesn't really make sense for me to argue that I've never used it unless I simply haven't used it and don't wish to try and pretend I have. How would anyone determine my exact identity from 'ex-runner'?

Star wrote:

1500m runner! wrote:

Why has it been 20 years? Better drug testing has stopped all the drug cheats?

No, that record happened to be ahead of it's time.

Since 1998, there have been 10 other performances that were faster than Morceli's record.

It's been 17 years since the second fastest time and 3 years since the 5th fastest.

I do not think the athletes are really any cleaner.

But if you look at race patterns, today's runners simply do not make many attempts at fast times every year.

El G went 3:30.00 or better 7 times in one year.

You don't even see anyone attempting 7 fast races at all in one year anymore. Not even sub 3:40.

Centro will put up one fast time a year, if that.

You saw a short period where Kiprop and Kiplagat would push each other in a few fast races each year.

Makloufi didn't make many fast attempts.

It's not drug testing, it's a different approach to the season.

In championship years, everyone does a couple of races to get sharp and then try to peak at the championship.

I don't know why off years like this don't produce more fast times. There is no reason to hold back.