Can someone tell me why we should be outraged if Donald Trump Jr actually had gotten dirt from the Russians?

OK, so we don't like what Russia is doing. That is fair.

But in the interest of fairness, let's compare that to what we are doing.

- Does Russia attack and invade other countries on false pretexts? Yes. (Ukraine)

- Does the US do the same? Yes, but much more. (Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria)

- Is Russia trying to expand territory and influence? Yes.

- Does the US do the same? Yes, but much more. The United States likely has more bases in foreign lands than any other people, nation, or empire in history.

exthrower wrote:

The US also interferes with Russian elections and many others including Israel and countries in S America....It's simply the way of the World.....Get off your 'high horse' libs....

Ok, so you support actions by foreign nationals against the interest of the US as long as someone can show the US has done something similar to some foreign national group at some point in the past? So, using this logic it's okay for radical Islamic terrorists to kill us citizens in the US, because the US has killed foreign nationals in their own countries. Glad we know where you stand now when someone attacks the US or its interests, you traitor.

Guy who often sez +1 wrote:

crunch wrote:

Agree with all of this, and to expand further, Russia is an imperialistic, expansionist state and has been throughout its history. Putin, at his core, is Russian nationalist, whose overriding goal is to expand the territory and influence of Russia. Anyone who believes otherwise is just naive.

Have we forgotten already that Russian controlled a large portion of Europe throughout much of the 20th century, including part of Germany? Donald Jr may have gone into the meeting just looking for dirt of Hillary, but the Russians are playing a much bigger and long-term game and the Trump administration seems to be oblivious.

+1

+1

And you believe Akhmetshin? Why?

An Extra Litre of Blood wrote:

I just read the version of events from Akhmetshin (the new guy revealed today) and he claims that Veselnitskaya had a folder containing names of then Russian Billionaires in "printed-out documents that detailed what she believed was the flow of illicit funds to the Democrats." He claims that when Don Jr asked Veselnitskaya if she could prove any of these allegations she said basically that is for you to do. At that point Kushner & Manafort thought the meeting was a joke, Kushner just got up and left. I personally would like to hear more about this story. It seems team Trump are getting a bad-rap, for NOT actually using this information and it has no connection to WikiLeaks whatsoever.

Exthrower ok with islamists wrote:

exthrower wrote:

The US also interferes with Russian elections and many others including Israel and countries in S America....It's simply the way of the World.....Get off your 'high horse' libs....

Ok, so you support actions by foreign nationals against the interest of the US as long as someone can show the US has done something similar to some foreign national group at some point in the past? So, using this logic it's okay for radical Islamic terrorists to kill us citizens in the US, because the US has killed foreign nationals in their own countries. Glad we know where you stand now when someone attacks the US or its interests, you traitor.

How is Russia's interference any (or much) different than Koch Bros. dark money in state elections that they are not a resident of said state?

Obama's team helped run Labour's 2015 campaign, he publicly intervened in the Scottish Independence Referendum, Brexit. Evidence suggests the 2012 French Election & Israeli Election. Then there was Egypt. Who knows where else?

Exthrower ok with islamists wrote:

exthrower wrote:

The US also interferes with Russian elections and many others ...

Ok, so you support actions by foreign nationals against the interest of the US as long as someone can show the US has done something similar to some foreign national group at some point in the past? ...

And Japan can nuke the US. Vietnam can Napalm the US. Cambodia can Agent Orange the US. German can bomb and storm the shores of the US. And Mexican can take back the southern US.

I am no fan of the Koch brothers but to think they are in any way morally equivalent to Putin is to have no understanding of Russian history. Who do you think Magnisky was? Rivals of Putin have been poisoned and have "fallen" from high places. Putin killed the free press. Putin found away around term limits in Russia.Putin developed a systematic and illegal intelligence system to select our president. Its very different.See what your people (Fox) have to say about this.

harry wales wrote:

Exthrower ok with islamists wrote:

Ok, so you support actions by foreign nationals against the interest of the US as long as someone can show the US has done something similar to some foreign national group at some point in the past? So, using this logic it's okay for radical Islamic terrorists to kill us citizens in the US, because the US has killed foreign nationals in their own countries. Glad we know where you stand now when someone attacks the US or its interests, you traitor.

How is Russia's interference any (or much) different than Koch Bros. dark money in state elections that they are not a resident of said state?

Conundrum wrote:

I am no fan of the Koch brothers but to think they are in any way morally equivalent to Putin is to have no understanding of Russian history. Who do you think Magnisky was? Rivals of Putin have been poisoned and have "fallen" from high places. Putin killed the free press. Putin found away around term limits in Russia.

Putin developed a systematic and illegal intelligence system to select our president. Its very different.

See what your people (Fox) have to say about this.

harry wales wrote:

How is Russia's interference any (or much) different than Koch Bros. dark money in state elections that they are not a resident of said state?

I said comparable. Interference is interference. That is the topic at hand. Both Putin & Koch Bros. sway elections that they have no citizenry interest in.

Conundrum wrote:

I am no fan of the Koch brothers but to think they are in any way morally equivalent to Putin is to have no understanding of Russian history. Who do you think Magnisky was? Rivals of Putin have been poisoned and have "fallen" from high places. Putin killed the free press. Putin found away around term limits in Russia.

And how is any of that a US problem? Isn't that more of a Russia's problem?

Turkey has a similar autocratic regime in power, guilty of similar transgressions against democratic behavior. Yet they are one of our close strategic allies. What's the difference?

Simply Koch brothers are Americans doing what they think will help America. Putin does not care about America at all.Putin used Russian intelligence to perform highly illegal behaviors to sway our election to his preference.I can't see how you can compare Koch's behavior to Putin's behavior. One is a major threat to our democracy from a foreign power.I don't see how you think this interference is the same.

harry wales wrote:

Conundrum wrote:

I am no fan of the Koch brothers but to think they are in any way morally equivalent to Putin is to have no understanding of Russian history. Who do you think Magnisky was? Rivals of Putin have been poisoned and have "fallen" from high places. Putin killed the free press. Putin found away around term limits in Russia.

Putin developed a systematic and illegal intelligence system to select our president. Its very different.

See what your people (Fox) have to say about this.

I said comparable. Interference is interference. That is the topic at hand. Both Putin & Koch Bros. sway elections that they have no citizenry interest in.

exthrower wrote:

The US has actually overthrown rulers in central and S America...It's history dude...Do some research....

Of course, since the 70s, these were foreign policy decisions supported and carried out, in large part, by neoconservative hacks. You know, the people Trump supporters voted for before they started crying about globalism. You're pointing to atrocities in American conservatism's past in order to justify the atrocities it is ignoring in the present.

As a republican and Trump supporter I'm glad stories like this come out, it distracts democrats from focusing on what they should be focusing on. Liberals will freak out while republicans say no big deal. But it keeps liberals away from focusing on how to effectively win the election in 4 years. Actually come up with plans to help the white middle class, come up with an effective message instead of calling everybody racist, and etc.

These stories usually go no where.

History 101 wrote:

exthrower wrote:

The US has actually overthrown rulers in central and S America...It's history dude...Do some research....

Of course, since the 70s, these were foreign policy decisions supported and carried out, in large part, by neoconservative hacks. You know, the people Trump supporters voted for before they started crying about globalism. You're pointing to atrocities in American conservatism's past in order to justify the atrocities it is ignoring in the present.

Let's see if we can assign the ownership for some of the more current American atrocities:

Iraq - Bush

Afghanistan - Bush

Serbia - Clinton

Libya - Obama

Syria - Obama

You think these foreign policy decisions were all made by neoconservative hacks?

The Trump campaign got from this exchange of emails and the meeting in all likelihood the direct go ahead to help his campaign by sharing the hacked emails, which they then immediately proceeded to do. And along the way, Trump publicly called for them to be hacked; a member of his campaign told us something big was coming just before more were released; and the Trump campaign/administration lied, as we now know, about all these contacts with Russia, those of Manafort, Flynn, Donald Trump, Jr., Jared Kushner, and others.

WMD wrote:

History 101 wrote:

Of course, since the 70s, these were foreign policy decisions supported and carried out, in large part, by neoconservative hacks. You know, the people Trump supporters voted for before they started crying about globalism. You're pointing to atrocities in American conservatism's past in order to justify the atrocities it is ignoring in the present.

Let's see if we can assign the ownership for some of the more current American atrocities:

Iraq - Bush

Afghanistan - Bush

Serbia - Clinton

Libya - Obama

Syria - Obama

You think these foreign policy decisions were all made by neoconservative hacks?

This is why Trump's campaign message of America First was appealing. We need to worry about problems in America (healthcare, tax reform, infrastructure, jobs) before we are off trying to fight the wars of the Middle East. We should have a strong defense to use force only when there is a security threat (North Korea). As establishment and low energy Bush found out, spending money like a drunken sailor on wars in the Middle East does not help the country and the conservative agenda.

WMD wrote:

History 101 wrote:

Of course, since the 70s, these were foreign policy decisions supported and carried out, in large part, by neoconservative hacks. You know, the people Trump supporters voted for before they started crying about globalism. You're pointing to atrocities in American conservatism's past in order to justify the atrocities it is ignoring in the present.

Let's see if we can assign the ownership for some of the more current American atrocities:

Iraq - Bush

Afghanistan - Bush

Serbia - Clinton

Libya - Obama

Syria - Obama

You think these foreign policy decisions were all made by neoconservative hacks?

Of course. It's all about Israel...spill American blood and spend American dollars to create failed and/or controlled states around Israel so Israel can do whatever the heck it wants to.

Agree with all of this, and to expand further, Russia is an imperialistic, expansionist state and has been throughout its history. Putin, at his core, is Russian nationalist, whose overriding goal is to expand the territory and influence of Russia. Anyone who believes otherwise is just naive.

- Does Russia attack and invade other countries on false pretexts? Yes. (Ukraine)

No, America under the ruling hand of Zi*nists helped overthrow the democratically elected president of Ukraine and replaced him with a Jewish billionaire Oligarch. Crimea wanted no part of this and broke off -- the Russians backed this move.

WMD wrote:

Let's see if we can assign the ownership for some of the more current American atrocities:

Iraq - Bush

Afghanistan - Bush

Serbia - Clinton

Libya - Obama

Syria - Obama

You think these foreign policy decisions were all made by neoconservative hacks?

First of all, I clearly said "in large part." Second, the nature of the Serbian, Libyan, and Syrian interventions were fundamentally different that the list of Reagan-sponsored interventions in the 80s below, which were about nothing more than suppressing socialism/communism. Regardless of whether they were right-minded decisions, the Democratic-led interventions were motivated, to a significant degree, by legitimate humanitarian concerns (for that very reason, the interventions in Syria and Bosnia should have happened much earlier). They certainly didn't involve toppling democratically-elected regimes in order to install tyrants who were more supportive of our interests (the Libyan intervention was the exact opposite of this).

Iran- Reagan

El Salvador- Reagan

Nicaragua- Reagan

Grenada- Reagan

Honduras- Reagan

Philippines- Reagan

Panama- Reagan