Is Said Aouita the greatest villain in track and field history?

Bad Wigins wrote:

bunch of false premises.

) Aouita's range was not unparalleled, Choge is better from 800 to 5000. Aouita's 10000 is not good enough to count as impressive range.

) track was not more popular than ever in the 80's, it was already dying. Its peak was in the 19th century before the olympics utterly ruined it.

) massive doping didn't start in the 1980's, people getting caught did. It didn't start with Viren in the 70's either. It never "started," it was always there right from the beginning.

His range was amazing and he got spiked in his 10,000 at the start- finished bloody.

Track was very popular in the 80's. The stars- especially mid distance- were well known even in the USA

Doping- I don't know when it started but I'm sure the Eastern Bloc athletes were on peds in the 70's.

Aouita's Belgian doctor, busted for supplying athletes in various sports with EPO, DHEA, and other peds, was Georges Mouton.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2001/09/27/belgische-dokter-aangehouden-na-verstrekken-epo-7558810-a922067

Coevett wrote:

Aouita's Belgian doctor, busted for supplying athletes in various sports with EPO, DHEA, and other peds, was Georges Mouton.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2001/09/27/belgische-dokter-aangehouden-na-verstrekken-epo-7558810-a922067

Moroccans were obviously doping, the ABP just proves it.

Coevett wrote:

Sorry, the previous post weren't too clear and in the several different articles I've been reading, the spelling of that Italian town where Aouita trained is spelt differently so I didn't realize it was the one town.

So to clarify, according to these articles and an old LetsRun forum thread, coach Renato Canova set up the an Italian National Training Center on the west coast town of Tyrennia in the mid 1980s, where Cova trained, as did Aouita (at least quite often).

Thanks for the links.

Aouita being secretive about his training is both logical and also suspicious.

Aouita's progression wouldn't be quite so shady if he'd been making improvements every year. Maybe you can go from a 3:40 runner at age 21, and become a 3:29 freak at 26.

But that's not how it happened with Aouita.

Aouita's best 1500 times year by year :

1980 3:37 age 21

1981 3:37 age 22

1982 3:37 age 23

1983 3:32 age 24 (gets Italian doctor)

1984 3:31 age 25

1985 3:29 age 26

And the above only tells half the story. Before 1983 he would run a 3:37 but generally run over 3:40. From 1983 he could spit out sub 3:33s at will, whilst running near 13 min flat 5000m races the week before.

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/morocco/said-aouita-91

It does not take much effort to see that these 2 Australian athletes - Rollison and Fountain belonged to the same training group of the Australian coach/manager who was part of the faction to run Aouita out of the Head Coaching role and the country. A smear campaign of unfounded drug talk worked like a charm! Sad thing is Ovett apparently has been living down under for 15 years and he can’t even get a look in for that job?

80sLegends wrote:

It does not take much effort to see that these 2 Australian athletes - Rollison and Fountain belonged to the same training group of the Australian coach/manager who was part of the faction to run Aouita out of the Head Coaching role and the country. A smear campaign of unfounded drug talk worked like a charm! Sad thing is Ovett apparently has been living down under for 15 years and he can’t even get a look in for that job?

Ovett reckons track is dirty and encouraged his son (Freddy not Yuriy) into cycling.

80sLegends wrote:

It does not take much effort to see that these 2 Australian athletes - Rollison and Fountain belonged to the same training group of the Australian coach/manager who was part of the faction to run Aouita out of the Head Coaching role and the country. A smear campaign of unfounded drug talk worked like a charm! Sad thing is Ovett apparently has been living down under for 15 years and he can’t even get a look in for that job?

Well Aouita didn't help by running back home to Morocco instead of defending himself at the inquiry.

Maybe I've been too harsh on him, but you have to admit, there is a lot circumstantial evidence that, taken together, really should leave most reasonable people suspicous. Especially when, for example, Coe is assumed to have been a ped user simply because of his blood infection (and because he lifted).

Yes, you can make excuses for each problematic fact, but taken together it's hard to feel he was clean.

Very strange career progression with massive leap forward at age 23 when moving to Italy - 'parasites at last cleared'.

Uncanny ability to train his presumably hyper intense 'secret methods' without getting injured for 5 years, enabling him to run world class or record times from 800 to 10000m, just when a new form of HGH was available in the USA where he winter trained - 'secret methods, best ever natural range'.

Belgian doctor later arrested for supplying peds to mutliple athletes - 'Aouita never failed a test, and the doctor was cleared on a technicality'.

First Moroccan great athlete, with numerous failed tests from the horde of North African runnners producing world class times that suddenly appeared in his wake, just as the EPO era began - 'Aouita never failed a test, and it's racist to assume he was a ped user just because he is Moroccan'.

Drummed out of Australia and his coaching role there after being accused of telling multiple athletes to take peds as the only way they could win - 'it was obviously a couple of athletes making unfounded accusations because their coach wanted Aouita out'.

Maybe too harsh on him, and if he was indeed clean, then there's no doubt he was an all-time great, although you could still knock him for avoiding his British rivals.

If he wasn't clean, and a lot of circumstances about his career and post-career point to that as being at least a reasonable possibility, and if he was the first 'great' to cheat in this way, then yes, he is the greatest villain in track history.

Coevett wrote:

Maybe too harsh on him, and if he was indeed clean, then there's no doubt he was an all-time great, although you could still knock him for avoiding his British rivals.

If he wasn't clean, and a lot of circumstances about his career and post-career point to that as being at least a reasonable possibility, and if he was the first 'great' to cheat in this way, then yes, he is the greatest villain in track history.

Aouita reminds me of Michel Jazy, who avoided races against Peter Snell.

Even though Jazy was setting WR's at the mile, 2000m, 3000m and 2 miles.

Coevett wrote:

Aouita's progression wouldn't be quite so shady if he'd been making improvements every year. Maybe you can go from a 3:40 runner at age 21, and become a 3:29 freak at 26.

But that's not how it happened with Aouita.

Aouita's best 1500 times year by year :

1980 3:37 age 21

1981 3:37 age 22

1982 3:37 age 23

1983 3:32 age 24 (gets Italian doctor)

1984 3:31 age 25

1985 3:29 age 26

And the above only tells half the story. Before 1983 he would run a 3:37 but generally run over 3:40. From 1983 he could spit out sub 3:33s at will, whilst running near 13 min flat 5000m races the week before.

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/morocco/said-aouita-91

I think that's reasonable, to compare the average times of one year with the (by far) best time in the next year. But I think Coedepp can do better, maybe he should compare Aouita's worst times before '83 with his best time in '83, than the point he WANTS to show to the world would be more clear, even to the average letsrunner. Here are Aouita's worst times:

1979: 3:49,0 (3:56,15 in championships heat) (his first track season with)

1980: 3:46,7 (3:51,26 in championships)

1981: 3:40,9 (3:47,72 in championships heat)

1982: 3:40,92 (3:42,2 in championships)

And than 3:32,54 in '83!!!

Early in 1980, Aouita has run 3:37,08 (in a rare attempt in an international meeting at the time). In probably his 2nd serious track season. Aouita has already run 13:48,5 in 1979 over 5000m (Coedepp has his ultimate potential over 5000m at 13:40). In 1982 Aouita has beaten Carlos Lopes over 10km cross, a season where Lopes has run 27:24,39 over 10000m, the Nr.2 performance ever at the time). But why to list such facts, when they just don't fit the agenda to show. Even in his early years, Aouita has shown his great range with good results from 800m to 5000m (incl. steeple) and for sure some great victorys in the cross.

Can anyone understand what Said69 is talking about in the above post?

Aouita ran 3:32 and a 3:33 in 1983, after rarely breaking 3:40 before that. And in 1984, when he was training for the 5000m at the Olympics, he ran under 3:35 FOUR times, including a 3:31.

For three years on the European circuit whilst training at the elite French Academy of Sport, he would run at best a 3:37 and a 1:48 and generally run 3:41/1:52 times. In 1983 he runs under 3:34 twice, and in 1984 - whilst moving up to the 5000m - he runs under 3:35 FOUR times, including the fastest time in the world.

Why does Said69 think the fact that Aouita could run 3:37 in 1980 (in his only race that year, he's implying?) doesn't make it even more suspicous that for the following two seasons as a regular on the B circuit he actually went backwards before suddenly becoming world class in 83 at the age of 24?

What cross country race did Aouita beat Lopes in?

On ARRS, it says Aouita and Lopes have never raced against each other.

This (in bold) makes no sense how can his best in 1980 be both 3:37 and 3:46.7?

Dropping from 1348 at 20 to 12:58 at 27 is quite a drop. Said's drops from 20 to his peak were far larger than Mo's and he is suspected on LRC.

Imagine if athletes came out and accused Mo of telling them to take HGH as it was the only way to win? Can you imagine if one of Mo's 'doctors' was busted for supplying peds to dozens of athletes and cyclists, most of whom had failed tests? Can you imagine if Mo had explained his improvement by 'finally being cleared of parasites' rather than joining an elite training group? Can you imagine that instead of suddenly changing from a regular finalist and 13:15 man, into a regular gold medallist and 13:00 man, Mo had turned overnight from somebody who couldn't get on the main circuit and was a 3:42/14:00 guy into a world record breaker 3:29/12:58 guy? Can you imagine if Mo had refused to explain his training methods, claiming to have discovered 'secret methods'?

Would Mo have any Said69 type defenders on this board at all?

Coevett wrote:

Imagine if athletes came out and accused Mo of telling them to take HGH as it was the only way to win? Can you imagine if one of Mo's 'doctors' was busted for supplying peds to dozens of athletes and cyclists, most of whom had failed tests? Can you imagine if Mo had explained his improvement by 'finally being cleared of parasites' rather than joining an elite training group? Can you imagine that instead of suddenly changing from a regular finalist and 13:15 man, into a regular gold medallist and 13:00 man, Mo had turned overnight from somebody who couldn't get on the main circuit and was a 3:42/14:00 guy into a world record breaker 3:29/12:58 guy? Can you imagine if Mo had refused to explain his training methods, claiming to have discovered 'secret methods'?

Would Mo have any Said69 type defenders on this board at all?

You gonna have to elaborate on that one Coevett, who is this doctor? Did Aouita have a dodgy doctor? Because Dr Brown is currently a target of USADA (though for grey area doping not roids etc).

Georges Mouton.

Translation :

Aouita was also managed by Vincent Modahl for a time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/rte-apologises-to-drug-tester-1.173719

I think the time in bold was his average 1500m time over the course of the season. The 3:51.26 is the time he ran to win the Islamic Championships. The 3:37.08 he ran in 1980, which isn't bad for a 20 year old, was in coming 3rd in Paris, where he beat Ray Flynn (who ran 3:49 for the mile I believe, later in his career).

I think Said88 forgot to mention that Aouita won the 1500m at the World University Games in 1981, beating Spivey, in 3:38.43. He also beat Masback, Wessinghage and Abascal in Firenze 1982 over 1500m, in 3:40.98.

So while I agree that there were several alarm bells over the course of Aouita's career, the most damning being the claims from Australian athletes, I don't think his progression (in terms of basing it purely on times run) was quite as startling as it may appear on the surface. He won a fairly big race in 81 and beat a few decent athletes in 82. No, he didn't look like a future 3:29 runner, but there is no reason to believe he couldn't have run 3:34/3:35 in 82 had he got into the right race.