Makhloufi destroying workouts

the problem with rento is the same as the excuses the sprinters use when then get busted....

gatlin...oh i was sabotaged

tim motgomery...i only used cause i was scared i was falling off, later turns out BALCO designed the 2yr project and named it "World Record" or something like that

Merrit....it was cause i had erectile disfunction

dennis mitchell....i had some beers and had sex with my wife

tyson gay...i was lied to and took against my knowing (and of course a small ban, and never was the results disclosed)

now rento claims the kenyans who take PEDs are not the top athletes, but when all the sudden top kenyans get popped its cause "she was afraid she couldnt perform so she took EPO"

of course PEDs dont work, and when people get busted for them its always some bull$hit excuse. if they dont work then why are they banned? if they dont work why are the top people busted for them? if they dont work then why is there a huge problem in kenya, morroco, russia, USA, and spain and france in cycling?

but but but it doesnt work on super nice innocent high altitude born kenyans ....enough with the sob story. PEDs work, and im sure for some the benefit isnt that much and for others its WORLD CHANGING. just like some people wont be addicted to heroin but others one time and boom they are destroyed. there is no way that kenyans are sooo supior to the rest of the world that PEDs dont add anything to their ability.

answer me this rento, what if it was descovered that geb, bek, mo, komen, and el g admitted to PED use, would you believe it?

I would have to put the burden of proof upon Renato. The claim he is making, and you are believing, is so contrary to the accepted theory amongst medical and physiological professionals in the scientific community that it borders conspiracy.

As I said, studies have been done to prove that Kenyans born and training to a club level respond to EPO the same as British athletes.

The effects of EPO on highly trained elite cyclists has been observed.

And studies into genetics have proven that Kenyans are no different to Europeans or Americans. In other words, a Kenyan may be more genetically similar to a European than his neighbour. There are no genes identified that are common to Kenyan athletes exclusively. Professional athletes from all countries have genes that predispose them to elite sports performance. That is not to say there is not more of these people in Kenya, maybe there is, but there is nothing yet identified that makes Kenyans inheritantly different to Europeans or Americans. This is not something I have made up, do your own research.

The chances that a combination of being Kenyan and elite suddenly makes you immune to EPO is not a theory that has any basis other than Renato's opinion. I would ask Renato to explain the physiological pathways that lead to elite Kenyans not being affected by EPO.

I would also like anyone to answer me on how a lack of drug testing and easily available PEDs such as steroids do not confer an advantage to athletes training in Kenya?

And please, nobody come in with the argument that other PEDs don't affect elite Kenyans also.

this is like if slimy Salazar told us PEDs don't work on Rupp lolol

I answer your last question. IF it was discovered that Haile, Kenenisa and Mo admitted to PED use, I felt myself frustrated, because my faith in clean athletes was bad placed, and because this means that I spent all my life without understanding people.

I could feel like you, if it was discovered that ALL YOUR FAMILY is a family of thieves and gangsters, and you supposed to live with a family of saints.

But I can assure you that this case NEVER can happen for myself, and I hope never can happen for yourself too.

If you are able to read what I normally write, with free mind (something you don't have), you could see I never excused any kenyan doped, on the contrary I said several times they needed to be banned, because if there is a rule, the rule is valid for everybody.

The fact that I continue to say that with top athletes EPO (not other kind of doping : I speak ALWAYS about EPO and blood doping only) doesn't give any advantage, doesn't mean I defend doped athletes. On the contrary, I think they are WORSE than the doped athletes of other Countries, BECAUSE THEY ARE IDIOT, not understanding that with them, if they have proper training, EPO doesn't work.

It's not a proof that EPO works the fact that many want to use, thinking to have big advantages. This is a product of the mediatic widespread idea that EPO can give big advantages, creating a lot of confusion in people who don't know the specifity of each sport, mixing cyclism and Marathon, and mixing Lance Armstrong with people living in villages without electricity, like their situation was the same.

Try to understand that the overevaluation of the effects of doping on the performances IS THE BEST WAY FOR PUSHING ATHLETES TO USE DOPING, if their final goal is to improve their best PB with any system.

For that reason, I say the best testimonial for doping is... the antidoping.

This not because I don't want the antidoping : I want a stronger antidoping, but I can't accept the common idea about how much advantage athletes can have with blood manipulation, BECAUSE THE DATA ARE NOT CORRECT and are fruit of something emotional, not something scientific.

I don't want again to discuss the belief of many scientists, who NEVER went to study the best subjects : I know what I'm speaking about, so nobody can make me changing idea, and at the same time you have already this "dogma" in your mind, therefore to discuss is useless.

You need to learn the difference between "excuse" and "explanation".

Excuses are for trying to avoid the consequences, explanations instead don't have any practical effect, but have the goal to give more knowledge about what happens.

But, of course, these are to fine differences for who, like you, lives with his own stereotypes, without knowing the difference between an apple and an orange.

do you know the difference between "excuse" and "explanation"?

What are you so upset about? I'm not following. In my mind there is just as much a chance, probably even more, that Farah or Rupp is doping than there is Makhloufi or Kiprop. After all, their coach (Al Sal) actually coached a doper and has been proven to have done things that are questionable at the very least. You are hung up on Gatlin saying he was sabotaged, yet Al Sal claims he was testing drugs on his own son to see if sabotage was possible (and this was after Al Sal himself saying that Gatlin's story was bs).

What I'm saying is that you're missing the point which is that the sport in its entirety is more than likely dirty.

As far as there being validity to what Canova is saying, I'm sorry but some club level athlete is not the same as an elite athlete. I'm not saying that Canova is correct, I'm saying that what he's saying seems plausible or at least worth researching. You instead, don't want to listen or possibly learn something, you just want to attack. So please attack.

So let me ask you this, how easily available are steroids in the US? About as easy as getting any other drug. Jesus, if you are anywhere near Mexico you can go to TJ and have a field day if you can't find it here so please don't make these foolish statements and think you're going to seem smart. You just seem like some sore loser xenophobe.

Xenophobe? The facts are that no out of season drug testing in Kenya makes it easy for athletes to abuse PEDs! I haven't just made this up! I didn't start the IAAF/WADA investigations!

I have never once mentioned Gatlin. He was dirty and got caught. Getting caught doping in America is far more likely than getting caught in Kenya because there is a comprehensive anti-doping programme in place. This is common sense. It acts as a much stronger deterrent. Only the few with highly advanced set ups could possibly get away with it and even then the doctors are not miracle workers.

Maybe Canova can explain how EPO doesn't affect elite Kenyans, physiologically. Because there is no empirical evidence to support him.

It is not simply the study showing that EPO affects those born at altitude the same as those not, it is also the fact that elite cyclists with incredibly high RBCs and haemoglobin levels benefitted from EPO and the fact that humans from Kenya and humans from Europe are not genetically different enough to state that their physiology behaves differently. I haven't even heard one reason why it might not affect Kenyans.

So again, the burden of proof is on those disputing EPO works on elite Kenyans.

What does this have to do with Makhloufi very likely doping? Makdopfie just did a 2:15 1k in practice. That guy is very suspect and no one hears anything about the anti doping program in Algeria. Metric Miler you are trying to put the spotlight on Kenya doping away from Taoufik. Good job throwing out those counter accusations. Impressive trolling once again. How about we talk about those suspect tests and Paula Radcliffe you limey bas tard.

Y Kawauchi wrote:

Metric Miler and Record Book, you have been owned.

Really? How come?

If you're basing that on Renato Canova's long response looking at % improvements in middle and distance events, that merely reinforces the points/arguments they are making.

Something very suspect happened in the decade from 1990 to 2000, where the average improvement in WR from 1500 and the 10k was over 2%. At least double the average improvements in other decades.

The level of improvement should be by incrementally smaller margins as time progresses, not increasing.

The impact of EPO and lack of random testing in specific countries in the 90's and early '00's is undeniable, regardless of any amount of spin put on it by vested interests. Surely the revelations of corruption under the Diack regime at the IAAF only confirms what is plainly obvious happened.

Unfortunately the sport may never fully recover from what happened during that period.

Why is the women's marathon world record held by Paula Radcliffe of Britain not been broken by any elite Kenyan or Ethiopian women in 13 years?

Why does Wang Junxia of China still hold the 3k and 10k world records after 23 years of ALL elite Kenyan and Ethiopian women born, living, and doing "elite" training at altitude trying to break these records?

ALL of them failed.

These world records have stood against ALL top level Kenyans and Ethiopians born, living, and doing "elite" training at altitude. These world records have also stood against ALL doping athletes from ALL countries in the world during that time.

Renato believes that Makhloufi is clean.

Renato believes Paula Radcliffe was clean.

Renato believes Wang Junxia was clean.

If Renato is correct in these beliefs, it also means that his theory that the best naturally talented distance runners in the world are Kenyans and Ethiopians born, living, and doing high level "elite" training at altitude is not correct after all.

It would mean that the two greatest natural clean talents in female distance running for the last 13 or 23 years have been a woman from Britain and a woman from China, respectively.

Right?

Or is there a problem here?

Kenya has dominated distance running since the time of Kip Keino is due to doping. Yeah right. Every major global player has had a doping problem China,Russia,Germany, UK,U.S.. Yet Kenya like Jamaica in the sprints always have athletes at the top for the better part of 4 and a half decades. Still don't think they have a genetic advantage? The numbers do not add up. They can't all have been doping. Canova is right that they are better. Kiprop is a freak and lets say he was on drugs he'd probably run 3:24. He'll probably go 3:25-6. So it not as significant a difference and I think is more what Canova means by EPO doesn't have the same effect because Kiprop is maxed out genetically with a super light frame and altitude training.

I thought this post was very good.

I just want to use what Renato says... without using my brain.

How do you think I am doing so far...Renato?

Tronald Dump wrote:

What does this have to do with Makhloufi very likely doping? Makdopfie just did a 2:15 1k in practice. That guy is very suspect and no one hears anything about the anti doping program in Algeria. Metric Miler you are trying to put the spotlight on Kenya doping away from Taoufik. Good job throwing out those counter accusations. Impressive trolling once again. How about we talk about those suspect tests and Paula Radcliffe you limey bas tard.

Yes I'm trying to put the spotlight on Kenya. If you had any brains you would be viewing Kenya with suspicion also. They have no anti-doping regime in place and dominate track and field, what don't you understand about that?

I don't particularly care for Makhloufi. Although I believe he trains in South Africa where the testing is good, I'm sure he joins the Kenyans in Iten for 'altitude training'.

However the original point I made was concerning the kind of statements you just made. A reported 2:15 in training is not evidence of doping. Just simply isn't. There is no correlation between impressive training and doping. A lot here believe Kiprop to be clean (myself included) and I am sure he could manage a 2:15 in training also. You have simply decided that it is impossible for Makhloufi to run 2:15 clean based on nothing. Others have decided that his 3:28 is not clean simply 'because'; along with his seemingly infamous Olympic gold.

I do not care whether he is doping or not. If he got busted I wouldn't blink. I am not a fan of Makhloufi's. However, I am an even less of a fan of calling out an individual as a doper based purely on great performances.

The one thing I agree with Renato on is that elite performance is possible and even common amongst clean athletes.

Doping allegations need to have some kind of basis. A coach that has been called out by athletes as doing illegal activities, team mates telling on athletes, an athlete associating with dopers such as training with them, athletes training under a coach who has had athletes caught doping; living and training for 90% of the year in a place where testing doesn't exist is another also. Russians, Kenyans, Ethiopians and Moroccans can be viewed with suspicion. And if anyone here knew my heritage they would not be calling me a xenophobe following my statements.

Y Kawauchi wrote:

Kenya has dominated distance running since the time of Kip Keino is due to doping. Yeah right. Every major global player has had a doping problem China,Russia,Germany, UK,U.S.. Yet Kenya like Jamaica in the sprints always have athletes at the top for the better part of 4 and a half decades. Still don't think they have a genetic advantage? The numbers do not add up. They can't all have been doping. Canova is right that they are better. Kiprop is a freak and lets say he was on drugs he'd probably run 3:24. He'll probably go 3:25-6. So it not as significant a difference and I think is more what Canova means by EPO doesn't have the same effect because Kiprop is maxed out genetically with a super light frame and altitude training.

You must be 14 years old.

And you must be an idiot. Oh yeah that actually is your name.

Renato, maybe a difficult question, but do you think Master runner (over age 40 yrs old) should train more like a Junior runner (under 18 yr old) or should they train more like 30 yr old runner?

Can a Master Runner run

Metric Miler.

Here is what Renato just said in his post:

It's not a proof that EPO works the fact that many want to use, thinking to have big advantages. This is a product of the mediatic widespread idea that EPO can give big advantages, creating a lot of confusion in people who don't know the specifity of each sport, mixing cyclism and Marathon, and mixing Lance Armstrong with people living in villages without electricity, like their situation was the same.

Do you think Rita Jeptoo (EPO positive) has any electricity where she lives?

Here is a photo of Rita at her doping hearing in Nairobi, Kenya.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2015/0417/oly_g_jeptoo_jv_600x600.jpg

What is your prediction Metric Miler?

Y Kawauchi wrote:

Metric Miler and Record Book, you have been owned.

By whom?

Did you read Stanford 2029's post?

Y Kawauchi wrote:

Kenya has dominated distance running since the time of Kip Keino is due to doping. Yeah right. Every major global player has had a doping problem China,Russia,Germany, UK,U.S.. Yet Kenya like Jamaica in the sprints always have athletes at the top for the better part of 4 and a half decades. Still don't think they have a genetic advantage? The numbers do not add up. They can't all have been doping. Canova is right that they are better. Kiprop is a freak and lets say he was on drugs he'd probably run 3:24. He'll probably go 3:25-6. So it not as significant a difference and I think is more what Canova means by EPO doesn't have the same effect because Kiprop is maxed out genetically with a super light frame and altitude training.

Kenya dominates distance running for a combination of reasons.

- it's a tradition, Like NZ in rugby. If there is a NZ kid who has massive natural talent in rugby, it will be found out and developed. All NZ boys play rugby (or close enough). If there is an Aussie kid with massive natural swimming talent, it will be found out and developed. Just about all Aussie kids have a go at swimming. If a Brazilian kid has massive natural ability at football/soccer, the same applies. Ditto Fins and javelin. And the same applies to Kenyans and running. There might be Kenyans with massive natural ability in swimming or javelin, but you'll never know, because they don't (as a general rule) have a go at swimming or javelin, though there is an obvious exception there!

- they have the right build for it. Light builds, esp in the extremities.

- they have the right sort of carb heavy and protein light diet

- they live in and train at altitude

And I'm sure there are other reasons too. In fact I know an athlete who did a thesis on it.

All of that has always existed, but once a bit of money and some quality coaching arrived, it took off.