EPO Helps Mid D More than Long Distance?

Aragon, if you want to look at the EPO effects, and understand maybe the effect was overrated, you need to go some year before 1988, when EPO still didn't exist.

For example, on 2nd July 1984 in Stockholm two Portuguese, Fernando Mamede and Carlos Lopes (who leaded all the race till last lap) destroyed the old WR, running 27'13"81 and 27'17"48.

During the European Championships 1978 in Prague, the final result of 10000m, paced for the most part by the Romanian Ilie Floroiu, was as follows :

1) Martti Vainio (Fin) 27'30"99

2) Venanzio Ortis (Ita) 27'31"48

3) Aleksandr Antipov (URSS) 27'31"50

4) Brendan Foster (GB) 27'32"65

5) David Black (GB) 27'36"27

6) Gerard Tebroke (Ned) 27'36"64

7) Ilie Floroiu (Rom) 27'40"06

8) Enn Sellik (URSS - Est) 27'40"61

9) Knut Kvalheim (Nor) 27'41"26

10) Jerzy Kowal (Pol) 27'53"61

And these were ALL Europeans, not like today, when we have in the Championships a lot of African running for Turkey, Spain, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Germany, France and other Countries !

If you want to have a better idea, I give you the 5th and 10th European

from 1972, for 5000, 10000 and steeple :

1972 : 13'22"4 - 13'28"4 // 28'03"8 - 28'14"4 // 8'23"8 - 8'26"0

1973 : 13'28"0 - 13'29"4 // 28'01"0 - 28'15"8 // 8'24"2 - 8'26"2

1974 : 13'23"93 - 13'25"78 // 28'14"80 - 28'18"37 // 8'19"73 - 8'25"80

1975 : 13'27"00 - 13'29"8 // 27'53"63 - 28'04"45 // 8'17"64 - 8'23"20

1976 : 13'18"0 - 13'21"2 // 27'54"43 - 27'58"81 // 8'15"32 - 8'21"00

1977 : 13’21”18 - 13’23”61 // 27’42”65 - 27’55”50 // 8’25”57 - 8’27”55

1978 : 13'20"82 - 13'24"10 // 27'36"27 - 27'48"4 // 8'19"5 - 8'24"86

1979 : 13'19"87 - 13'23"2 // 27'41"89 - 27'52"88 // 8'23"0 - 8'25"83

1980 : 13'20"99 - 13'22"00 // 27'48"7 - 28'00"64 // 8'18"47 - 8'23"5

1981 : 13'19"13 - 13'21"14 // 27'45"50 - 27'55"06 // 8'21"72 - 8'24"75

1982 : 13'12"78 - 13'17"80 // 27'34"58 - 27'55"77 // 8'19"72 - 8'21"4

1983 : 13'19"38 - 13'21"3 // 27'37"59 - 27'55"8 // 8'16"59 - 8'19"64

1984 ; 13'16"02 - 13'18"46 // 27'47"54 - 28'01"3 // 8'16"25 - 8'20"16

1985 ; 13'18"47 - 13'20"93 // 27'50"30 - 28'02"92 // 8'13"77 - 8'19"38

1986 : 13'15"01 - 13'17"71 // 27'44"57 - 27'52"48 // 8'16"92 - 8'19"44

1987 : 13'14"60 - 13'21"44 // 27'47"05 - 28'05"59 // 8'17"69 - 8'20"70

1988 : 13'16"1 - 13'19"16 // 27'39"36 - 27'52"27 // 8'16"01 - 8'19"15

1989 : 13'17"82 - 13'20"91 // 27'49"74 - 27'54"67 // 8'17"64 - 8'21"21

1990 : 13'17"71 - 13'23"36 // 27'41"30 - 27'58"74 // 8'16"31 - 8'20"98

1991 : 13'17"79 - 13'21"90 // 27'53"00 - 27'58"42 // 8'19"33 - 8'23"74

1992 : 13'10"47 - 13'18"91 // 27'48"57 - 27'56"74 // 8'20"32 - 8'25"50

1993 : 13'16"48 - 13'19"78 // 27'42"35 - 27'59"72 // 8'21"24 - 8'24"92

1994 : 13'17"33 - 13'22"40 // 27'55"0 - 27'57"87 // 8'22"20 - 8'25"33

1995 : 13'13"77 - 13'17"46 // 27'51"64 - 28'06"18 // 8'18"26 - 8'22"33

1996 : 13'18"60 - 13'23"43 // 27'49"17 - 27'59"72 // 8'20"95 - 8'22"84

1997 : 13'13"27 - 13'18"41 // 27'41"94 - 28'02"94 // 8'19"16 - 8'24"09

1998 : 13'04"64 - 13'15"67 // 27'34"05 - 27'49"46 // 8'18"30 - 8'20"51

1999 : 13'08"13 - 13'22"48 // 27'46"12 - 27'51"82 // 8'12"24 - 8'16"50

2000 : 13'09"64 - 13'15"75 // 27'45"75 - 27'56"30 // 8'14"53 - 8'19"43

2001 : 13'09"63 - 13'18"20 // 28'01"94 - 28'18"38 // 8'16"00 - 8'21"66

2002 : 13'10"90 - 13'17"04 // 27'44"05 - 27'51"01 // 8'15"02 - 8'20"91

2003 : 13'19"22 - 13'23"24 // 28'05"27 - 28'15"66 // 8'13"86 - 8'17"72

2004 : 13'15"28 - 13'17"59 // 28'11"27 - 28'27"02 // 8'15"77 - 8'18"53

2005 : 13'12"36 - 13'25"68 // 28'14"90 - 28'30"80 // 8'14"05 - 8'17"32

2006 : 13'11"13 - 13'24"28 // 28'11"04 - 28'20"43 // 8'14"67 - 8'18"90

2007 : 13’25”37 - 13’32”08 // 28’17”87 - 28’28”04 // 8’15”38 - 8’21”33

2008 : 13’15”72 - 13’22”68 // 27’44”54 – 28’05”37 // 8’14”74 - 8’21”16

2009 : 13’14”19 - 13’24”24 // 27’58”48 - 28’19”39 // 8’18”44 - 8’24”22

2010 : 13’19”21 - 13’24”38 // 28’12”83 - 28’25”22 // 8’21”27 - 8’24”04

2011 : 13’19”93 - 13’26”59 // 27’53”55 - 28’25”29 // 8’15”47 - 8’19”00

2012 : 13’15”21 - 13’21”12 // 28’04”22 - 28’18”50 // 8’18”03 - 8’22”62

2013 : 13’17”42 - 13’27”08 // 28’06”74 - 28’31”82 // 8’19”64 - 8’24”62

2014 : 13’22”27 - 13’30”41 // 28’02”79 - 28’11”11 // 8’20”29 - 8’25”38

2015 : 13’11”77 - 13’22”92 // 27’47”55 - 28’22”01 // 8’21”59 – 8’22”49

Analyzing the event of 5000m, we can see how, about the top 5 in Europe, the average was 14 times under 13’15” (during the full period of 44 years), with this classification for the best 10 years :

1) 1998 (13’04”64)

2) 1999 (13’08”13)

3) 2001 (13’09”63)

4) 2000 (13’09”64)

5) 1992 (13’10”47)

6) 2002 (13’10”90)

7) 2006 (13’11”13)

8) 2015 (13’11”77)

9) 2005 (13’12”36)

10) 1992 (13’12”78)

If we want to see the best 10th, the classification for the best 10 years is the following (13 years under 13’20”) :

1) 1998 (13’15”67)

2) 2000 (13’15”75)

3) 2002 (13’17”04)

4) 1995 (13’17”46)

5) 2004 (13’17”59)

6) 1986 (13’17”71)

7) 1982 (13’17”80)

8) 2001 (13’18”20)

9) 1997 (13’18”41)

10) 1984 (13’18”46)

Now, we have to analyze the worst 10 years for the best 5 (9 times over 13’20”) :

1) 1973 (13’28”0)

2) 1975 (13’27”00)

3) 2007 (13’25”37)

4) 1974 (13’23”93)

5) 1972 (13’22”4)

6) 2014 (13’22”27)

7) 1977 (13’21”18)

8) 1980 (13’20”99)

9) 1978 (13’20”99)

10) 2011 (13’19”93)

At the level of top 10, this is the classification of the worst years (12 times slower than 13’24”) :

1) 2007 (13’32”08)

2) 2014 (13’30”41)

3) 1975 (13’29”8)

4) 1973 (13’29”4)

5) 1972 (13’28”4)

6) 2013 (13’27”08)

7) 2011 (13’26”59

8) 1974 (13’25”78)

9) 2005 (13’25”68)

10) 2010 (13’24”38)

Now, we go to analyze the trend of 10000m. About this event, we must consider that, during the last years, it practically disappeared from the main meetings, so the opportunities for running fast decreased in a dramatic way.

The best 10 years, at the level of top 5, are (13 times under 27’45”) :

1) 1998 (27’34”05)

2) 1982 (27’34”58)

3) 1978 (27’36”27)

4) 1983 (27’37”59)

5) 1988 (27’39”36)

6) 1990 (27’41”30)

7) 1979 (27’41”89)

8) 1997 (27’41”94)

9) 1993 (27’42”35)

10) 1977 (27’42”65)

This is the level of the best 10 (for 20 years better than 28’) :

1) 1978 (27’48”4)

2) 1998 (27’49”46)

3) 2002 (27’51”01)

4) 1999 (27’51”82)

5) 1988 (27’52”27)

6) 1986 (27’52”48)

7) 1979 (27’52”88)

8) 1989 (27’54”67)

9) 1981 (27’55”06)

10) 1977 (27’55”50)

Now, we go to see the worst seasons, at the level of top 5 (13 times slower than 28’) .

1) 2007 (28’17”87)

2) 2005 (28’14”90)

3) 1974 (28’14”80)

4) 2010 (28’12”83)

5) 2004 (28’11”27)

6) 2006 (28’11”04)

7) 2013 (28’06”74)

8) 2003 (28’05”27)

9) 2012 (28’04”22)

10) 1972 (28’03”8)

At the level of top 10, this is the situation (16 times slower than 28’10”) :

1) 2013 (28’31”82)

2) 2005 (28’30”80)

3) 2007 (28’28’04”)

4) 2004 (28’27”02)

5) 2011 (28’25”29)

6) 2010 (28’25”22)

7) 2015 (28’22”01)

8) 2006 (28’20”43)

9) 2009 (28’19”39)

10) 2012 (28’18”50)

We have still to analyze the trend of steeple. These are the best seasons for the top 5 (13 times under 8’16”) :

1) 1999 (8’12”24)

2) 1985 (8’13”77)

3) 2003 (8’13”86)

4) 2005 (8’14”05)

5) 2000 (8’14”53)

6) 2006 (8’14”67)

7) 2008 (8’14”74)

8) 2002 (8’15”02)

9) 1976 (8’15”32)

10) 2007 (8’15”38)

This is the classification at the level of top 10 (11 times under 8’20”) :

1) 1999 (8’16”50)

2) 2005 (8’17”32)

3) 2003 (8’17”72)

4) 2004 (8’18”53)

5) 2006 (8’18”90)

6) 2011 (8’19”00)

7) 1988 (8’19”15)

8) 1985 (8’19”38)

9) 2000 (8’19”43)

10) 1986 (8’19”44)

Now we go to see the worst seasons at the level of top 5 (12 times slower than 8’20”) :

1) 1977 (8’25”57)

2) 1973 (8’24”2)

3) 1972 (8’23”8)

4) 1979 (8’23”0)

5) 1994 (8’22”20)

6) 1981 (8’21”72)

7) 2015 (8’21”59)

8) 2010 (8’21”27)

9) 1993 (8’21”24)

10) 1996 (8’20”95)

And finally we can see the worst at the level of top 10

1) 1977 (8’27”55)

2) 1973 (8’26”2)

3) 1972 (8’26”0)

4) 1979 (8’25”83)

5) 1974 (8’25”80)

6) 1992 (8’25”50)

7) 2014 (8’25”38)

8) 1994 (8’25”33)

9) 1993 (8’24”92)

10) 1978 (8’24”86)

I think it’s not possible to find any relation with doping looking at these data, apart the period of 3 years immediately before the direct detection of EPO (1998-2000).

What it’s clear, is that the European activity lost, in the last 10 years, motivation and stimuli, for the continue increase of the number of African runners in all the events.

Since the most important meetings of DL are in Europe, after 2009 the organizers preferred to build top competitions in sprint events, also for the presence of Usain Bolt, who is the most attractive athlete in the World, and long distances lost interest, and the opportunities for running fast times drastically decreased.

About European athletes, we need also to understand they depended, for their performances, on the level of the big competitions. For example, at the level of top 5 in steeple we can see the best seasons were when there were continue attempts of WR, with Moses Kiptanui before, with Shaheen later, and in so fast competitions also the best European (only few had the possibility to compete) could improve their PB.

To reduce everything to the idea of “how doping worked” for every period is completely wrong.

We need to know the history of athletics, because not always there are top talents, and when there are optimal conditions for competing all the athletes in the race can have advantages.

It’s also interesting to see how the “Bekele era” was not the best for European athletes. Can we suppose they didn’t dope and Bekele doped, or simply nobody used doping (apart few athletes positive, like Mourhit), or, still, the effects of EPO are not so strong to change the situation for athletes of medium level?

These are interesting points, since we can’t divide during the same periods the activity of African runners (according some people “doped”, otherwise they could not run so fast) from the activity of European (absolutely clean, because, if they are doped, how it’s possible they are so slower than African ?).

Performances come from a mix of talent, motivation, proper training and perfect conditions. To reduce everything at the best doping, it’s not only wrong, but clearly very sad and unfair.

How does the early blood packing - removing blood after training at altitude then re-infusing before major competitions - compare with EPO?

Many people believe the Portuguese were blood packing, along with the Finns and many others. If true (I believe most likely is true) then we have a comparison between blood packing versus EPO usage.

The beginning of the EPO-era is one of the open questions, on which it is difficult to came to any definitive conclusion.

EPO was apparently developed in 1986 and while there were some clinical trials in late 1980s, most sources put use to the beginning of 1990s when it became easily available through pharmacies. I think that anecdotal evidence points to this direction also, for instance I have a recollection that the Conconi-Grazzi-Casoni files put the beginning of the use at 1992-1993 and apart from the mysterious cluster of deaths of cyclists that occurred in 1987-1990, there is very little any other evidence that the method was available in 1980s (EPO apparently had nothing to do with the deaths of the most famous ones, such as Johannes Draaijer and in the other cases the link is very weak).

When first blood doping tests (not capable to detect EPO) were used in 1989 FIS Nordic World Ski Championships, the mean (highest) Hb values for men and women were 14.8 (16.5) and 13.4 (14.8), no smoking gun there. As late as 1992 Winter Olympics, some teams adhered to old school transfusions, so EPO wasn't apparently yet too available.

The run (which I have mentioned in an earlier post) is interesting because two Russians broke their national record and the success of Venanzio Ortis is also of great interest because he is still the 3rd fastest Italian 10k runner and a living proof that an Italian is capable to succeed at international arena before the blood doping era.

And thanks for the very interesting figures. Unfortunately this kind of data does not exist in the minds of those who take the standard EPO-narrative on the 1990s. If EPO was available to everyone and caused same kind of stimulus, there is no explanation for the change in the composition of the top echelon of endurance running world, when the share of Europeans dropped from 75-90 % to 10-20 % from 1980s to late 1990s. It is not too wrong to say that people comparing the world "top" of 1990s to the world "top" of 1980s are comparing apple to oranges.

Unfortunately fixed ideas are hard to change and in this instance almost impossible. For instance, just another day, in the other vivid Kenya/EPO- thread one eloquent gentleman ("Henry333") informed Letsrun.com-readers that anyone who disputes the 1990s EPO-narrative is "either a moron" or "connected to the sport and have a vested interest in keeping the status quo such as Canova".

Because I have zero vested interest in keeping the status quo (whatever that means), everyone can do the math into which class I belong to.

Todd Williams claimed that Francesco Panetta tested positive at the '93 WCs.

You are negelecting that serious participation in distance running in Europe plummeted throughout the 1990s and 2000s so the talent pool of people training seriously in this part of the world became considerably smaller compared with the 1980s. The opposite happened in East Africa;

Also as others have pointed out blood doping was used in the 70s and 80s so you cannot really say there was a before and after EPO era.

With all these confounders you cannot make any valid general analysis without knowing specific details for individual athletes. Instead, you have to look at known individual cases to evaluate the effects of epo in elites.

Another of my critics ("Clerk") actually criticized me for taking the 1960s as a comparison point in my original post a week or two ago in this thread. I had done this just for the reason that blood doping became available in early 1970s so I am actually one of those "others" who pointed the blood doping era of 1970s and 1980s (I have actually written little-by-little an unpublished manuscript on the Finnish blood doping "program" if you can call it that name).

I referred to the problem of European diminishing interest on running in this same page a few posts ago, but it isn't particularly cost-effective to repeat every argument and conclusion in every post:

Whether looking at trendlines of results is right approach to evaluate the effect or prevalence of EPO is interesting matter to debate, but generally people who like to paint certain eras and athletes in questionable colours have adapted this approach. If you respond to their arguments with methods of their toolbox, the methodological flaws aren't yours but theirs.

Here is some timeline for you:

Jan. 1987- New England Journal of Medicine publishes clinical trial of EPO

1988-International Ski Federation bans EPO use.

1988- in April, Dr. Francesco Conconi from Italy publishes in the International Journal of Sports Medicine a study with the title................ "Serum erythropoietin in cross-country skiers..................http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3384528

Later in 1988, Gelindo Bordin from Italy wins the Olympic gold medal in the marathon and Salvatore Antibo from Italy wins silver in the 10K.

1990- Gelindo Bordin wins Boston marathon.

- IOC bans use of EPO

_ newspaper and medical journal articles published on 17 deaths in

cycling that are believed to be due to EPO use.

Dr. Conconi had a famous pupil who worked with him named Dr. Michele Ferrari who went on to become the doctor/coach of Lance Armstrong....You remember him, don't you?.........

just some interesting coincidences and an interesting paper published by Dr. Conconi way back in 1988.......interesting what Dr. Conconi was studying back then.......it truly was a golden age for Dr. Conconi and Italian running back in 1988, wasn't it?................

Your speculations are attractive theory, but are totally wrong when you go to speak about the athletes.

Gelindo Bordin NEVER took any substance, also legal. He won OG 1988 with 39.7 Hct and 12.7 Hb, and two weeks before going Seoul the doctor responsible for hematology in Pisa University (where we had, about every month, blood tests with all the top Italian runners, not for reasons of doping, but in order to control parameters such as Iron, Ferritin, Transferrin and Cortisol) suggested to send him to hospital for a period of 5 days, for having intravenous injections of Iron, thinking with these values he could not compete in Olympics.

The fact is that the blood sample was taken BEFORE the best "supertest" he had in his career : 15' warm-up + 2 x 2000m (taking blood for the lactate) in 6'05" and 6' using acustic rabbit with 40" recovery, then 30 km at 3'12" and immediately, coming back to the track, another 2000m in 6' for controlling the level of lactate, comparing with the level before 30 km.

So, if the sample was taken AFTER this supertest, we could suppose this training to be so demanding that the blood values dramatically decreased; but, because the supertest carried out AFTER the sample (so, with these values which were, I repeat, 39.7 and 12.7), we decided he was in top shape and could run very well in Seoul.

About Antibo, he used auto-transfusion from 1983 till 1985, without training in altitude, following the protocol of Conconi. When in 1985 the practice became outlawed, Antibo started to train in altitude in Sestriere (2050m with some course at 2400m) several times every year, and started to improve running very much faster than before.

Other athletes, such as Panetta (WCh 3000 steeple 1987) and Mei (European Champion 10000m 1986) Always refused to do auto-transfusions, and Mei particularly was penalized by CONI in 2 occasions because refused to follow the Italian protocol.

Cova Always used autotransfuion, but never trained in altitude.

Don't give too much importance to Conconi in the period after 1985 : all the best coaches and their athletes didn't meet him anymore, and FIDAL quitted to work with him (there were no athletes with links with Ferrari).

Incidentally, the values of Bordin are very similar the values of Schwazer when he won Olympics in 50 km walking in Beijing 2008. When he felt too much pressure, because Russian walkers told him everybody could walk very much faster with EPO, and he feared not to be competitive before London, he looked at taking EPO (from March 2012), but all what he did before was achieved as "clean" athlete. But for WADA, when his values before London were very high (so there was a clear doping), the values before Beijing, very law, were considered as "product" of some substance for diluing plasma. This mean that you are Always doped, when is high because of EPO, when is low because you try to hide the use of EPO...

These are examples because who works usually with top athletes in high altitude can't have any confidence in what the doctors of antidoping say.

I repeat for umpteen times : it's not possible to speak about the effects of blood doping, if we don't study, don't know and/or don't consider the effects of training (which scientists don't know).

.

You just did an admission of autologous blood transfusions with the Conconi protocol by Italian runners including 1988 Olympic 10K silver medalist Salvatore Antibo and 1984 Olympic 10K gold medalist Alberto Cova........An admission of a of blood manipulation via blood transfusion by top Italian runners does not help your case much.....comparing Bordin and Schwazer(banned for EPO in 2012..... but believe me when I tell you he won clean in 2008!)... does not help your case either....

Don't you think it is a bit suspicious that Dr. Conconi moved from doing blood transfusion protocols to publishing a study about serum EPO levels in cross-country skiers in 1988?......so he obviously knew about EPO way back then......He was measuring EPO levels in their blood!!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3384528

You tell us that after 1985...."all the best coaches and their athletes didn't meet him anymore"......that statement sounds reassuring...but we don't know if that statement is actually true....... as there may have been skiers, cyclists, and runners who did continue to meet with Dr. Conconi after 1985.......or with his famous student Dr. Ferrari...........

hello

i am shocked you have had so many stoopid replies on this thread

good luck / happy new year

ignore the fools

best wishes

( BTW, how much ~ 1'43-flat talent do you think is in Kenya & what do you think you could do with that talent if you had hold of the Eugene-weight-training - gymnasium/coach ? )

Let's start by pointing out that there's hardly a single issue I didn't address in my post, I mentioned the genesis, trials and deaths of cyclists.

Yes, Dr. Francesco Conconi knew about hormone called Erythropoietin, but everyone knew about it from 1950s as it was a natural hormone in human body. The research paper isn't about recombinant ”synthetic” EPO levels but about the natural hormone.

The article was about natural EPO levels. Why did he do research on measuring the natural EPO-levels of athletes?

I'll tell you an interesting story: the whole blood doping research community talked about EPO since mid- 1980s without even necessarily knowing that the synthetic version of the hormone was just around the corner. How is that? Because one of the approaches to detect autotransfusion dealt with level of serum EPO in relation serum Hct.

As there was some debate about how hypoxia and other factors affect Erythropoietin levels, it was necessary to know whether other factors than transfusion changed this parameter. There were also other papers on the issue by blood doping researchers (for instance Bo Berglund).

About the issue of synthetic r-EPO. The whole world knew about it sometime around 1988 Calgary winter olympics, when there were several UPI/AFP- news telegrams and more moral panic about the issue.

Professor E. Randy Eichner has been one of the main proponents of this theory. In his own actual writings he proposest that ”some” of the deaths have been due to EPO-use. Official inquiry found no evidence of this. How misleading the writing on the subject has been is interesting – The most famous death is that of Dutch cyclist Johannes Draaijer, who died in February 1990 due to a heart failure while sleeping. Der Spiegel quoted Draaijer's widow who told that her husband took EPO. But in a recent interview she tells to anti-doping author Paul Kimmage that she gave no interviews to anyone and that her husband had a hereditary heart weakness.

It is very questionable that many authors tell that Lance talked bullshit when he claimed that Greg LeMond took EPO in 1989 because it wasn't available in 1980s while maintaining that EPO killed all those cyclists at the same time.

ventolin^3 wrote:

ignore the fools

( BTW, how much ~ 1'43-flat talent do you think is in Kenya & what do you think you could do with that talent if you had hold of the Eugene-weight-training - gymnasium/coach ? )

You won't get an answer if he does that.

Consequences are not the only things that matters. Intentions matter. Someone who takes EPO, whether or not it benefits them, is doing so because they believe it will make them better, and they do this knowing that it is against the rules. This shows what kind of person he or she is. Athletes that do this are bad actors and deserve to be banned.

from the New York Times article "Stamina-Building Drug Linked to Athletes' Deaths" published May 19,1991:

Physicians believe athletes began EPO use with the beginning of EPO clinical trials in 1986.

In 1987, five Dutch riders died suddenly. In 1988, a Belgian and two more Dutch riders died. In 1989, five more Dutch riders died. In 1990, three Belgian and two Dutch riders died. That is 18 dead cyclists in four years!

Looks like some people didn't have their EPO dose correct in the beginning, did they?......They did too much and ended up dead! More cyclists died in the years to come....pushing hematocrits to 60 or 65% or 70% can be deadly!

If you want to think that these 18 deaths in 4 years are all coincidental and have nothing to do with EPO use.....that is your choice.

I think the 18 deaths are suspicious...... and I think Dr. Conconi is suspicious....

Hi,

A very interesting article on Schwartzer (and his collaboration with Ferrari) here :

http://www.lemonde.fr/athletisme/article/2015/12/18/le-grand-projet-de-sandro-donati-et-alex-schwazer_4834669_1616661.html

(sorry, it is in french).

This article links Dr. Michele Ferrari ( Dr.Conconi's student) with Alex Schwazer, the 50K walk gold medalist mentioned in his other post! Hmmmmm........ This is just another interesting coincidence!..............right?It is unfortunate that my posts are now being deleted by LetsRun.com............

Yayoye wrote:

Hi,

A very interesting article on Schwartzer (and his collaboration with Ferrari) here :

http://www.lemonde.fr/athletisme/article/2015/12/18/le-grand-projet-de-sandro-donati-et-alex-schwazer_4834669_1616661.html

(sorry, it is in french).

Using a race won by Martti Vainio to support an argument that EPO doesn't have much effect, is disingenuous and at the very least shows great ignorance.

Vainio won in 1978, when EPO was not still available. Of course, he use homologus transfusion, but we are here discussing about EPO, not about some different thing.

You need to see the date of the performances, before speaking without any base of knowledge.

Renato Canova wrote:

Vainio won in 1978, when EPO was not still available. Of course, he use homologus transfusion, but we are here discussing about EPO, not about some different thing.

You need to see the date of the performances, before speaking without any base of knowledge.

Renato,

Do you think that Lasse Viren blood doped? Thanks.