Which was more impressive Killians Hardrock CR or Emma Coburn's AR

Hold up Sage said Joe Gray couldn't win Mt. Washington before? Gray smashed him this year so thats gotta sting and he didn't really look like he strained much

Emma's PR is definitely more respectable, more elite athletes have attempted the steeple compared to the few elites that have tried Hardrock.

Jofl, Sage is somewhat right, Max is not a pure climber. Its not what he enjoys anyway so its not hurting his feelings to say that. He likes undulation. From the video in Poland it looked like he was climbing just as well as Gray so maybe he has really improved??

I'd really like to see Gray at his level now race Killian in a distance that they can meet in the middle like Sierre Zinal or perhaps a few of the Skyraces in europe or US. My guess, Gray wins in a close battle.

Oh oh and, someone mentioned Killian would beat Emma on the Track...ARE YOU SMOKING? He is super slow, Emma would crush him 5k and down I promise. Killian couldn't break 9 for a 3k flat

I don't remember ever saying Joe Gray wouldn't win Mt. WA....Why would I say that? The guy has been on a tear since this winter and climbing better than ever.

I will say Max King very likely will not win Mt. WA if Blake and Gray and I all keep doing the race.

I would also go out on a limb to say that Gray's climbing ability now would also win over Killian hands down at a race like MT. WA. If you want to compare "who beat who" at short distance mountain racing to ultras consider this:

Krar beat Killian at UROC. Gray handily beat Krar at world mountain running champs in 2012. So Gray beats Killian at short distance mountain race?

Depends on the course profile.

However, from having experience at Sierre-Zinal I know the course and that Gray ran about 2:42 in 2012 there. Compare that to last year when I ran (or shall i say death marched) a 2:45 and Killian ran a 2:33 last year to finish 4th. For reference Max King finished in 3:30 because he was reduced to a walk. Classic Euro style mountain racing is a totally different ballgame!

The course opens up with an ascent where you are splitting 10-15min/mile and powerhiking at times.... it's not like Mt. WA at all where at least you can keep the mile splits around 8 flat and aren't tripping over roots and rocks dying.

But this whole thread is just full of speculation and generalizations (and people that seem to think they know what they are talking about without ever having raced any of these events). We will likely never see Killian on the roads or track - so all we can do is compare guys that have run on the roads and track and how they perform in the mountain-ultra-trail scene (and that's a very small sample size).

Sage,

Thank you for contributing to this thread. You're one of the relatively few people with significant experience in both arenas. I appreciate that you've tried to share what you know with the rest of us, despite some of the attacks here.

Good luck this season.

Unfortunately Olympic/track distances and doing well at them are what the general public relate to.So IMO excelling at that is more important,but doing what the top ultra trail runners do does have my respect.Having done both I can assure you that doing what top ultra trail guys achieve is very impressive and f..ing hard.

Carpenter ran 2:18 on very minimal marathon training. Arguably, Kilian is much much more fit, no? I would typically agree with what you wrote, but guys with a VO2 max above 90 are just a different breed entirely.

Collin, stop trying to compare Kilian with Matt Carpenter. Having run with both, they are two totally different breeds. Matt was a track/road background, fluid stride. Kilian is a workhorse grinder.

I would not say Kilian is fitter than Matt in his prime. Please see Kilian's result at Pikes Peak if you want to understand the difference in these two athletes.

Kilian would not be able to run what Matt ran in the Marathon, nor would he be interested because he knows it is not his strength. He will never catch or outrun anyone on flats or roads. Now, descents = game over, except when you look at Pikes Peak and what Carpenter was able to do.

And you know this how? Wasn't there a link posted the other day where he ran like 9.8k in 28 minutes or so with an elevation change of 300'? Oh, you just ASSUMED he was Mt. Biking because certainly an ultra runner couldn't do that. LOL.

What man is running 7:45? For f sakes, she didn't even win the race?

Anatomy 101 wrote:

Captain Oblivious wrote:

If the two raced in a steeple, could Emma get over the three foot barriers that men have to go over?

Yeah probably if she was a man she'd be running 7:45.

Are you really that stupid.

Sage,

Any insight as to why you didn't compete for a spot on the US Mountain Team last weekend? Did you feel it would take too much out of you for Speedgoat or do you feel you've gotten "too slow" as you keep saying, with not enough VO2 max work for such a race? I was surprised with how poorly Hoka athletes performed. My theory is that the midsole height leads to way too unstable running on a course like Loon. Just look at Timmy Parr, etc.

I have been impressed with Zach Miller. I did not expect him to make the team with his credentials, but I think Mount Washington opened some eyes to the fact that he is not just an ultra guy.

Best of luck in 2014 and beyond.

She didn't win the race. He broke a course record. She wouldn't have the AR if Jenny Simpson were still running it. Great year for Emma, but you act like she is the best steepler in the world.

fast eddie m wrote:

You're right, the field at one particular ultra trumps every American woman to ever run the Steeplechase.

/dumbas.s

The point of saying she couldn't beat him over a 100 miles was to shut up people saying she would beat him in the steeple. Idiots expect everyone to be able to do everything at every distance. For some reason, its okay to win marathons if you don't have Olympic medal 10k speed but its not okay for people who like running on trails who might not run faster than a 2:15 marathon to run ultras, because suddenly, its not real running. Bolt runs the 100 and 200 because he wouldn't be world class at 800m. Rudisha wouldn't be world class at the 5k, but idiots are disparaging ultra runners for not running 2:10 marathons. Its moronic.

Curious sage what do you think Gray could do on Sierre Zinal now and what do you think Killian will do? You Americans must talk Gray into racing it this year so we can see battle.

Also I think Carpenter is much stronger climber than Killian as are sage and gray on any course which features fast cadence climbing.

get used to it. wrote:

She didn't win the race. He broke a course record. She wouldn't have the AR if Jenny Simpson were still running it. Great year for Emma, but you act like she is the best steepler in the world.

fast eddie m wrote:

You're right, the field at one particular ultra trumps every American woman to ever run the Steeplechase.

/dumbas.s

It doesn't matter if she was 1st, 2nd, or 5th. The question is, are women steeplers at a higher level athletically than male ultra mountain runners? It's really rather moot an pointless but interesting for discussion. That said, ever heard of Evan Jäger? Or a sub 8 men's steeple? How do those compare? Or are ultra athletes now the greatest that ever stepped on the face of this earth?

Ultra runners are the cross fitters of the running world.

Rol wrote:

Collin, stop trying to compare Kilian with Matt Carpenter. Having run with both, they are two totally different breeds. Matt was a track/road background, fluid stride. Kilian is a workhorse grinder.

I would not say Kilian is fitter than Matt in his prime. Please see Kilian's result at Pikes Peak if you want to understand the difference in these two athletes.

Kilian would not be able to run what Matt ran in the Marathon, nor would he be interested because he knows it is not his strength. He will never catch or outrun anyone on flats or roads. Now, descents = game over, except when you look at Pikes Peak and what Carpenter was able to do.

Uli, no? Nice to see you posting here. Descents are exactly what I'm talking about with Kilian. He has really really really good turnover and his legs are very good at running at 5:00 pace. Regarding Pike's Peak, I would suggest that those aren't really able to be compared. The difference between the times run by Matt and Kilian there arguably stems from two things:

1. Matt knew the course incredibly well and knew how to maximize his performance. Kilian just ran it once.

2. Kilian generally just does the bare minimum necessary to win. If he has a gap, he won't hammer the pace. At WS100, for example, he frequently stopped and waited for his competitors since they couldn't keep up.

If Kilian were to go out and run a marathon today, he wouldn't be faster than like 5:30 pace, but his turnover and fitness are both so high that I doubt it would be more than a season worth of specificity to get to the ability to run right around 5:00 pace. Of course, that wouldn't mean much in the grand scheme of running, so he's better off focusing on really crazy mountain performances and pushing the boundaries there.

ugh, this post has devolved into super nerd talk.

Collin wrote:

Carpenter ran 2:18 on very minimal marathon training.

BS. Carpenter thought he could not only qualify for the Trials, which he did, but make the Olympic team. This idea that he ran his 2:18 off of minimal training is nothing more than urban legend.

Nothing wrong with a 2:18 PR and Matt could race relatively well at shorter distances on flat courses as well, but he thought his mountain talents would translate to a much faster road marathon.

Simon Peter wrote:

You are confusing "stunt running" with "real running".

So running a loop over terrain is a "stunt," but running around a synthetic track with artificial barriers is "real?" When you think about it running trails, mountains, ultras seems more like "real" running than running circles on a track or a road race on asphalt.

Even more ridiculous is the constant bashing of ultra running. Track, at it's best, is still just a niche sport. Why are we bashing a segment of our already very small, insignificant sport? Other than us runners, very few give two sh*ts about track or elite marathoning unless it's an Olympic year. Ask the guy at the water cooler if he can name a 2012 Olympic gold medalist from track other than Bolt?

Again, I'm not picking sides (Kilian vs. Coburn), but I guarantee that most Europeans who follow running (and as a whole Europeans do better than the typical American) have heard of Kilian, but won't necessarily know of Coburn (at least until this year).

Finally, Collin, you are underestimating what it takes to run 5:00 pace for a marathon. I suspect that Kilian doesn't think he could ever do this. Not a knock on him, but as other have pointed out, he has a different skill set.

right now Kilian could run sub 2:35 for a marathon

how far under is anyones guess, mine is ~2:27