Y'all aren't elite are you? wrote:
Mary Cain is the 3rd fastest youth 800m runner of all-time, behind two chinese girls that ran their marks in a very suspicious place and time.
So you are right she is not a WR holder, but she is among the best of the best.
No she is not. If she has a superlative attached to the title, she is not among the best of the best. Cain cannot be used to support your faulty point. And please tell us about these laws of physics.
man where wrote:
No she is not. If she has a superlative attached to the title, she is not among the best of the best. Cain cannot be used to support your faulty point. And please tell us about these laws of physics.
If we are going to worry about superlatives being attached to the title that takes out women altogether since men are faster at everything. Further, there are animals faster than men. And there are particles much faster than animals.
Mary Cain was the youngest athlete to make it to the finals in the 2013 WCs. By definition the World Championships are the best of the best. She was there. She was the youngest. She's pretty damned impressive, buddy.
Right, like there is any chance you'll listen to what I have to say about physics and form.
Cheater wrote:
Absolutely ridiculous how much she's dropped off her personal best in the 3k. After a hard effort like that you'd expect her to be bent over just gasping for air. But not Dibaba, she's fresh as a daisy. She is a cheat.
She is reaching the level of women who were known cheaters.
She is visibly tired. Can barely stand up, falls down and can't take off her spikes. As she's sitting there you can see her stomach moving quite a bit as she gasps for air. I'm not sure if she's clean but your "evidence" is not founded.
Now Rudisha, that guy does not even breathe after breaking the world record.
Y'all aren't elite are you? wrote:
Mary Cain was the youngest athlete to make it to the finals in the 2013 WCs. By definition the World Championships are the best of the best. She was there. She was the youngest. She's pretty damned impressive, buddy.
Right, like there is any chance you'll listen to what I have to say about physics and form.
No, that is not 'by definition'. You created that definition. By definition, the people in the world championships are the people that satisfied the criteria to get there. See Kenya and Ethiopia's history of championship team selection.
Why wouldn't I listen to what you have to say about physics and form if I'm the one who asked you to tell me? You are continuing to make less and less sense.
Y'all aren't elite are you? wrote:
The laws of physics are such that WR holders inevitably run very similarly. The layman might not see it that way and think there are huge differences, for instance Mary Cain vs. G Dibaba, but in fact they run almost identically. The Chinese women had a very irregular style where they returned their feet very low across a huge arc.
What laws of physics would those be? Something is either moving fast enough, or it isn't.
You're looking at the first women who will dip under 14 in the 5000m.
Like who? What current world records were set by dopers who were later caught? I can't think of a single record in the men's distance running...
You're logic is so circular is unbelievable:
1) Assume every fast time must be due to doping or cheating
2) Categorize every great athletic performance as tied to doping, based on the above belief
3) Use above "pattern" to support belief that we live in an era where every fast time is tied to doping.....
either theselect few ethiopians who have dominated track for the last twenty years are all doping or they're all clean imo
and i know which one my moneys on
Andre3kTheGiant wrote:
She is visibly tired. Can barely stand up, falls down and can't take off her spikes. As she's sitting there you can see her stomach moving quite a bit as she gasps for air. I'm not sure if she's clean but your "evidence" is not founded.
SMJO wrote:
y'all aren't elite are ya wrote:the thing about the chinese women ahead of her on the all-time list is that they ran like total donkeys. dibaba at least looks the part with a massive back-kick; using her legs as all other wr holders do. the chinese were shuffling to wrs and that was part of why it looked so wrong. short legs relative to the body and no back kick? that's tough to believe. long legs relative to body, huge back kick, born in the land of runners...now that is believable.
is she doped? who knows, but i'll give her the benefit of the doubt based on her progression, family, and the fact she just broke a wr that is not on the olympic program.
Using form as proof of doping is a new one.
That was a very cogitive scientific approac. Much more interesting than a lot of the crap on here. Dibaba is much more believable than any of the Chinese runners.
Genzebe Dibaba has to participate in the biological passport right? I here that is a pretty rock solid way to catch cheaters. Systematic doping offenders such as Lance and A Rod are capable of getting away with cheating by paying people off. I doubt Genzebe would have enough financial support to get away with cheating. Frankly only a small percentage of the population even notices when she breaks a record and far fewer care. Track just isn't that important.
The overwhelming outrage and certainty that this lady is doping is comical. Why shouldn't the best runner from Ethiopia be ~3.3% faster than the best American in history? Take the men's marathon for instance, wouldn't that average hold pretty true for the best American vs. the best East African. You would clearly have to throw out Ryan Hall's BS Boston performance. If you took the top 10 average Ethiopian male marathoner vs. the 10 average American male marathoner the percent difference would most certainly grow. As you broaden the data the gap will only continue to grow. The East African runner has distinct genetic advantage.
Now let's pretend she's doping and Shanlane was not doping back in 2009. Do you think the doping is helping her by 3.3%? Anymore than that and you would have to argue that Shalane was more properly prepared and/or more genetically gifted than Dibaba.
Walker red wrote:
Genzebe Dibaba has to participate in the biological passport right? I here that is a pretty rock solid way to catch cheaters. Systematic doping offenders such as Lance and A Rod are capable of getting away with cheating by paying people off. I doubt Genzebe would have enough financial support to get away with cheating. Frankly only a small percentage of the population even notices when she breaks a record and far fewer care. Track just isn't that important.
The overwhelming outrage and certainty that this lady is doping is comical. Why shouldn't the best runner from Ethiopia be ~3.3% faster than the best American in history? Take the men's marathon for instance, wouldn't that average hold pretty true for the best American vs. the best East African. You would clearly have to throw out Ryan Hall's BS Boston performance. If you took the top 10 average Ethiopian male marathoner vs. the 10 average American male marathoner the percent difference would most certainly grow. As you broaden the data the gap will only continue to grow. The East African runner has distinct genetic advantage.
Now let's pretend she's doping and Shanlane was not doping back in 2009. Do you think the doping is helping her by 3.3%? Anymore than that and you would have to argue that Shalane was more properly prepared and/or more genetically gifted than Dibaba.
+1
Walker red wrote:
The East African runner has distinct genetic advantage.
There is literally no evidence for this. Do you think the East Africans are evolving every 1-2 years then? It's much more likely that they just prepare and train better.
Our top guys can barely run more than 1 race of any distance per year. The top US guys in the 70s and 80s managed to race much more and much faster. Did US runners lose their running genes since then?
Abebe Bikila broke the marathon world record running barefult in Rome in 1969. In Tokyo four years later he improved the existing record by over 1minutes and 30 seconds. The Ethiopian women and Kenyans for that matter have achieved extraordinary success because of where they lived/high altitude/proportionally big lungs and work ethic from child hood. Never had a school bus, and walked or more often run to school and back.
If dibaba was an 8:45 runner for 3K and suddenely did 8:16, that would have been grounds for suspicion. Defar's record of 8:23 was 7 years old! Some were shocked she broke the indoor 1500 m record. Wrong. Another Ethiopian, Abeba Aregawi run it around 3:57 the same week. Both girls have run around 3:57 ourdoors. Shaving off 3 or 4 seconds is going to happen when run by 3:57 caliber girls. Forgetting the East European and Chinese doppers, this is bound to happen. Since 2003 nobody has touched Paula Radclif 2:15:23 record, no one. What do we say now, that Paula was a doper. Dont be quick to judge. wait for the test results. There is plenty of incentive and push to get the Dibaba sisters out of competetion so other atheletes get a crack at the medals.
I dont think you know all the facts. When Tirunesh Dibaba came to Addis, missed school registration deadline and started to run for a club, she obliterated the women's time very quickly. I can tell you also there was not a single foreigner coaching anyone at the time. If you go back and look at historical records for marathon, 10 k, the mile etc, it is shocking how many singlularily dominating theletes there were for many many years. So were they EPO'ing in the 60's
genes??? wrote:
Walker red wrote:The East African runner has distinct genetic advantage.
There is literally no evidence for this.
There's actually quite a lot of evidence for this.
Do you think the East Africans are evolving every 1-2 years then?
No
It's much more likely that they just prepare and train better.
Better than who/what?
Our top guys can barely run more than 1 race of any distance per year. The top US guys in the 70s and 80s managed to race much more and much faster. Did US runners lose their running genes since then?
[ur;=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_records_in_track_and_field]Faster?
There are a COUPLE of old records there, but they're mostly not in commonly run evens (except the 800m).
The biological passport isn't rock solid
And lol at the other fool giving his+1
genes??? wrote:
Walker red wrote:The East African runner has distinct genetic advantage.
There is literally no evidence for this. Do you think the East Africans are evolving every 1-2 years then? It's much more likely that they just prepare and train better.
Our top guys can barely run more than 1 race of any distance per year. The top US guys in the 70s and 80s managed to race much more and much faster. Did US runners lose their running genes since then?
Literally no evidence? How about the fact that in the Half-Marathon there are only half a dozen athletes in the top 150 that aren't African. Of those that are African, almost all of them are from an area that is very close to the equator, at elevation and has an abnormally low level of gravitational pull for being in a mountainous region. But yeah, that's probably just a coincidence and they just try harder.
just sayin wrote:
The biological passport isn't rock solid
And lol at the other fool giving his+1
Please tell us about the biological passport.
Tell us how all of this East Africans are beating it.
wait a minute: it is not as if runners haven't tested positive for doping or been demonstrated to have been doping in setting world records and top times. The 1980s Eastern Bloc is suspect because they had documented, systematic doping programs covering all the greats, including Cierpinski (1976/1980 marathon winner), Dreschler, Koch, the 800m woman, Kazankina, and on and on. The 1990s Chinese runners are suspect because massive #'s of Ma's athletes tested positive later on and of course because many of them would run far faster than anyone else in history, but not outside the country. The 1990s male distance runners smashed the world records and legions ran under the old records during the era of EPO being widely available and untestable. Later on, some of those athletes (Mohammed Mourhit, Ali Saidi-Sief, and others) tested positive. Fifteen years later, most of those times were untouchable. The Ethiopian distance runners have been great for a long time, but with both Ethiopian and Kenyan athletes we note the European coaches or agents and wonder, particularly when we find out that out of competition blood-testing was not taking place in Kenya (where Aden's athletes train) and that masses of athletes in the marathon are smashing all pre-2000 records on a weekly basis. Dibabas are obviously the greatest distance running family in history. A 3:55 runner can run 8:16. But with a 4:12/4:04 solo from before 1k, she is worth sub 8:10 outdoors and that's some scary company.