Doping widespread in Kenya? Fresh allegations by German journalist

We are not talking about theories, we are talking about realities. If you say, someone is a murderer you have to give evidence that someone killed. When you say Kenyans dope, show us us the proof. You have the burden of proof. Don't get an heart attack, it is simple.

KENYANS DON'T DOPE, I was one of them. Why do they have to toil for 10 years training if they could just pop a pill?

Hey, if you can't beat 'em, Virenize 'em.

You are mistaken.Noone here state that any particular kenyan is doped before a judge. Or that all kenyans are doped.You are the only one with that kind of statement, saying that NO kenyan dopes. Then you need to back that statement.What is stated is that EPO, HGH and other drugs are easily obtained in kenya. The documentary is evidence of that.For more evidence you can go and try yourself, you will be surprised (or not, I think you already know the truth, denying it).

Runthedistance wrote:

We are not talking about theories, we are talking about realities. If you say, someone is a murderer you have to give evidence that someone killed. When you say Kenyans dope, show us us the proof. You have the burden of proof. Don't get an heart attack, it is simple.

I have read the suggestions here and see alot of naivity, arrogance mixed with hatred on this particularly topic sorry to say. Currently, Im in Kenya, I live both in States and home and I am a kalenjin the runner's tribe to be specific. I get amused and mayb entertained reading from people trying to come up with theories that dont hold while they have never been to Riftvalley.... the cradle of distance running. Before going further, I would suggest the German doctor take the "incredible" findings to IAAF or any credible body for further investigation.

It is aknown fact that in many races held in German, there is a limit to the Kenyan runners who wish to attend.

GRAMTHLETE, You talk of improved physical advantage in the last TEN YEARS?! Really, What about Scientifically efficient improved training program in the last TEN YEARS! What about improved technology considering shoes and other training equipments in the last TEN YEARS?

You should consider that Henry Rono while living and running in states, he Broke THREE WORLD RECORDS in 90 days back in the late seventies.

Runthedistance wrote:

We are not talking about theories, we are talking about realities. If you say, someone is a murderer you have to give evidence that someone killed. When you say Kenyans dope, show us us the proof. You have the burden of proof. Don't get an heart attack, it is simple.

Wow, this is a funny way of thinking. But why not.

No one is saying: Kenyans dope. What is being said is: there's evidence that there could be doping in Kenya. If we were talking about murder, to pursue your analogy, we'd be in this scenario: we have bodies, we have motive, we have opportunity, and it appears we now have means. The accusation, in itself, has not yet taken place.

In this analogy, you'd be the family of the suspect, obstructing justice. Probably doing so loudly, waving fists in the air and growling menacingly at the victim's family (American and US sub-elite runners).

If this parallel reality is to take place, could I please please please be James Edward Olmos from Miami Vice fame? I'd like to stand around looking dour with my hands in my pockets, mouthing one-liners such as "do it."

Thinks about this.

1. One single High school team came from Kenya and won U.S.A High school national crosscountry championship. This was not even the picking the best runners from different schools NO! ONE SCHOOL. Results they went position 1-7 FULL SCORE under leadership \ of Martin Keino.. son of Kipchoge keino. Are you surpriced? were they doped?

2. One tribe in Kenya dominates the running. The Kalenjin. This speaks alot since most world beaters come from there... single tribe. Infact, there are many wasted talents among kalenjins who never had achance to go abroad for international meets..and you didnt get achance to know.. get informed. It is even aknown fact there that you can randomly pick any kalenjin man who doesnt train or run proffessionally and he will shock you how fast he can run without training!! NO EPO my friend. Pure talent.

3. Its our pride. We run to win and train very hard that we dont get shocked by our performance thus the slogan train hard win easy... Hard work pays.

Kalenjin wrote:

GRAMTHLETE, You talk of improved physical advantage in the last TEN YEARS?! Really, What about Scientifically efficient improved training program in the last TEN YEARS! What about improved technology considering shoes and other training equipments in the last TEN YEARS?

You should consider that Henry Rono while living and running in states, he Broke THREE WORLD RECORDS in 90 days back in the late seventies.

My, my, my. I didn't say those improvements didn't exist. I was merely asking about them. Once again, I'm being deformed. I feel like a tomato growing in one of those square plastic molds that they use to grow square tomatoes. You push out spherically, you expect to end up spherical, but the powers that be have decreed that you're to grow into a square mold and you are powerless to take your own destiny under control.

So, shoe technology has vastly changed in the last ten years?

Once again, just a question. I'm not an elite runner. I do run, though. I've run marathons. I ran them in big bulky ASICS shoes that they now tell me are inefficient and the move is toward minimalism. But if you say shoe technology has vastly improved...are you saying that?

As for scientifically improved training programs, sure, why not? It's just that you hear, on this very forum mind you, that training has not changed much since Lydiard. Has it? If so, has it changed in Kenya in any way that's not being emulated elsewhere?

As for other training equipments, what are they? Watches? Have watches gotten better? Or RoadID badges, become more honed and precise?

I don't have answers, only questions. I'm like Donny from the Big Lebowski, I'm like a child that just walked into the room and that has no frame of reference.

But noone denies the talent of the Kalenjin or the Kenyan in general.With or without doping, Kenyan runners will be at the top.Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong and Ben Johnson were also incredibly talented individuals.What is stated is simply that doping EXISTS, and is easily accessible also in kenya. And I want to add, PROBABLY quite common among the very best, like the US and Europe.

I'm an american distance runner! I don't dope! Americans don't dope - none of us!

Hey runthedistance - do you now understand how stupid that sounds? You have no idea who dopes and who doesn't. Try to wrap your brain around some basic logic before you spout off too much.

Also - this is not a court of law.

Kalenjin wrote:

Thinks about this.

1. One single High school team came from Kenya and won U.S.A High school national crosscountry championship. This was not even the picking the best runners from different schools NO! ONE SCHOOL. Results they went position 1-7 FULL SCORE under leadership of Martin Keino.. son of Kipchoge keino. Are you surpriced? were they doped?

You seem determined to cast me in the unflattering light of the imperialistic muzungu determined to blemish your nation to advance some secret agenda.

But, no. I'm just a curious individual who enjoys running. So, I googled your claim and, lo and behold:

"On December 2, 2006 a Kenyan boys team and a Kenyan girls team were also flown in to partake in the open events; the teams dominated the North American course and showed spectators a whole new view of racing."

Interesting stuff.

Well, at least we can all agree there's a boatload of doping in MMA.

Gramthlete I see youre the self proclaimed Honourable Judge. Get informed I am not a runner, I speak what is in my mind nothing like family of suspect... As a self proclaimed judge your honor, Please get the facts first I dont give a damn about your miami Vice fame, I am not from there. This is what I said, If there is any evidence please let them forward to reliable credible body for further investigation... I just added infor concerning genuine reasons on the topic on running depth your honor. You can be your imaginary James Olmos your honor as you wish. Thank you

Youre so confused Gramthlete! Reading your posts you are suffering from an exerggerated sense of self importance. You wish to have different personalities at same time. Just read your post and see how many times you say "I'M LIKE"

Here is the list what you wish to be.

1. James the Miami Vice fame.

2. You said "Im like Donny from Big Lebowski"

3. You claimed to be like even tomato!

4 I'm like a child that just walked into the room and that has no frame of reference.

Hey Gram athlete every YEAR shoes innovation change! Every YEAR running program change!... for Better. You cant claimed the shoes now look like back in 2000. Mr. Gramthlete, allow me to let you know that when I talk of improved training equipments I am not talking of Watches my my my lol. I am talking to training facilities in the training room gym for all parts of the body excercises.

Mr. Gramthlete, please discover first WHO YOU ARE BEFORE WISHING TO BE ANOTHER PERSONALITY!

Maybe we should ask Eddy and his Kenya's B team of runners. Is Eddy feeding some goodies to this athletes?

Kalenjin wrote:

Gramthlete I see youre the self proclaimed Honourable Judge. Get informed I am not a runner, I speak what is in my mind nothing like family of suspect... As a self proclaimed judge your honor, Please get the facts first I dont give a damn about your miami Vice fame, I am not from there. This is what I said, If there is any evidence please let them forward to reliable credible body for further investigation... I just added infor concerning genuine reasons on the topic on running depth your honor. You can be your imaginary James Olmos your honor as you wish. Thank you

Oh, such confusion. I see there's a misunderstanding here, so

I should probably offer more information, in the name of

intercultural friendship and understanding.

James Edward Olmos wasn't a judge, he was the police lieutenant.

So, while I appreciate the honour of being termed judge, I

must regretfully refuse.

Also, James Edward Olmos is not imaginary. He's an actor.

The character he played onscreen, who *is* imaginary, was Martin Castillo.

Moving swiftly along, you mention that you're not a runner,

but being Kalenjin, from what you mentionned earlier, you

therefore have innate running ability. Is there any reason

this ability has not enabled you to take a more active

role in running?

The main reason why there is huge improvement in time is because people eat, train and sleep 24/7. 15-20 years ago a lot of Kenyan runners had to join the military just because they had better programs, resoures and time to train today people don't have to join the army they can just go to a running camp and just focus on training. People know what they want and they just go for it. Kenyan runners don't have to search for success because they see success everywhere.

Kalenjin wrote:

Youre so confused Gramthlete! Reading your posts you are suffering from an exerggerated sense of self importance.

Hey! That's false!

Once again, a Kalenjin is dropping wild accusations about

muzungus' ability to self-appreciate, without a shred of

evidence!

If you have proof of my biased self-esteem, show it, otherwise

accept that no one in North America is self-aggrandizing!

Still on Gramthlete.

Even though Kenyan running style has been emulated, the train hard win easy comes in hand with lifestyle. Did they perfectly emulate running from school since they were kids?!!! Every morning running 5 km or 3 miles back and forth? Did they emulate the kind of God given physical structure?

By the way to be more precise as you requested, Kenyans were VERY MUCH behind on technology ten years ago. Even on shoes. Guess what is happening now. Big change! Everything for training has rapidly been easily available in Kenya. Many many sponsors coming out everyday... Get this FACT. YOU COULD COUNT THE NUMBER OF GYMS IN KENYA IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY.. Mark you, to this point, Kenya has only three modern stadium..only! While NON EXISTS IN ELDORET where almost all famous Kenyan athletes are born, train and liv there. Mr. Gramthlete, could u imagine if there were gyms and modern track in Eldoret, Riftvalley! There are plans to built modern one. Can you imagine improvements that will come with that?!!!! I got my knowledge elsewhere not on this boards as you suggest to think. Again, get your facts before you judge somebody. English is not even my third language.