If a 5K is so aerobic, then why do so much speedwork?

rekrunner wrote:

So now you are asking me a question. Lucky for you, I work with satellites, and I know a thing or two about celestial mechanics.

Actually there are four answers: one, or the other, or both, or none. The real answer depends on your frame of reference.

Look rekrunner. Its you that are enable to see things in different contexts, not me.

Part of your answer says "The real answer depends on your frame of reference."

Its what i say about Lydiard. The main problem with Lydiard training is the wrong frame of reference. In one early post you said something like this "Lydiard is not an expert in interval training". This seems to be the main problem. He said many things about intervals or periodisation but he fails because the wrong frame of referential. Lydiard reference is so poor that he says he had heard the Moroccans do his training when it´s not true. The Moroccans do short fast intervals with short length recovery. See how he lacks referential and he was an ignorant that bases considerations by wrong heard.

sound of silence wrote:

Its what i say about Lydiard. The main problem with Lydiard training is the wrong frame of reference. In one early post you said something like this "Lydiard is not an expert in interval training". This seems to be the main problem. He said many things about intervals or periodisation but he fails because the wrong frame of referential. Lydiard reference is so poor that he says he had heard the Moroccans do his training when it´s not true. The Moroccans do short fast intervals with short length recovery. See how he lacks referential and he was an ignorant that bases considerations by wrong heard.

That is true about Lydiard.

He also said Carlos Lopes was a great example of succeeding without interval training, but Lopes ran intervals twice a week, every week, all year long, every year.

Could you please elaborate. Are these low intensity verticle jumps, not jumping for height? How long do you do them and how often? For example, continuous for 10 minutes, before running, every day?

Vladamir Kuts did some kind of bounding exercise for usually 15 minute periods after running, three times a week.

"14 minutes of running, springing from the balls of the feet."

"15 minutes of springy, balls of the feet running."

Couldn't you just implement this while running forward instead of jumping up and down?

It is important to note the style of shoes can have major effects on the stride. It is practically impossible to have a good quick stride in cumbersome shoes with thick midsoles.

Wellnow, you suggest doing two footed jumps to improve push off. Would it not be better to do one legged jumps instead? In running we only ever push off with one leg at a time, never two, so would it not make sense to practice pushing off just using one leg? Also, I would imagine hills would also be a great asset in this regard. The push off phase is very much extenuated during hill running due to the increased stretch of the calf and achilles, wouldn't you agree?

once again runningArts' got it

Some years ago, Antonio Cabral wrote a long and detailed thread describing the history of "intermittent" training; the different kinds that exist; all the different parameters and variables that can be changed, and their effects; and how and why they are used for different purposes. Few things impress me in the "letsrun" forum, but I certainly felt like I learned a lot from that thread that I had never seen elsewhere, before or since.This certainly contrasts with Lydiard's simpler approach: "Run one, jog one, 'til you think you've had enough".If you want to argue how Lydiard could have leveraged interval training in all of his phases, to allow faster development, higher peaks, fewer miles, shorter downtimes, etc., I would have no problem with that, and would enjoy reading these arguments.If you want to argue that Lydiard was not an interval training expert, and didn't understand interval training like others before him or after him, I have no problem with that.If you want to argue that Lydiard didn't understand interval training can be aerobic, I can see why you might say that. I might argue with that, as missing the point, but I would listen to arguments about how they could shorten aerobic development, or lead to less "downtime" between racing, and require fewer miles.I could certainly see these points, and maybe some others, and might even agree with most of them.After all, we should have learned a thing or two in the last 50 years about training, since his day.But you said something quite specific: That Lydiard believed longer recovery intervals can turn anaerobic workouts into aerobic workouts. To support this, you give quotes where he says that anaerobic training should be done with longer recovery intervals (like the Moroccans) and Americans do it wrong because they don't understand anaerobic training, and they make recovery intervals shorter, not longer.My only issue with you here is that your conclusion seems to me the exact opposite of the quotes you provided. You claim "BLACK" and provided quotes that say "WHITE", and claim it is me who is not able to see this from the right contexts. I can not make myself more clear than that. This has nothing to do with how I see Lydiard, or what he knew about Moroccan training, but just me interpreting plain written English. It's simply that your supporting evidence doesn't support your conclusions.Help me out here. Maybe you are right, and it is me, and I completely misunderstand the quotes you provided correctly. But they seem to me to be statements about how to make things more anaerobic, not aerobic as you claimed Lydiard believes. Hence my question to you: does "low arterial pH" mean aerobic or anaerobic?

sound of silence wrote:

Look rekrunner. Its you that are enable to see things in different contexts, not me.

Part of your answer says "The real answer depends on your frame of reference."

Its what i say about Lydiard. The main problem with Lydiard training is the wrong frame of reference. In one early post you said something like this "Lydiard is not an expert in interval training". This seems to be the main problem. He said many things about intervals or periodisation but he fails because the wrong frame of referential. Lydiard reference is so poor that he says he had heard the Moroccans do his training when it´s not true. The Moroccans do short fast intervals with short length recovery. See how he lacks referential and he was an ignorant that bases considerations by wrong heard.

wellnow,

I enjoy your input, I would be interested in reading your ideas on exercises, drills etc to improve muscular power specific too pure speed.

cheers

rekrunner wrote:

I know I asked before, but honestly I forgot your answer, or even if you did answer.

Did you read Matt Fitzgerald's Brain Training? He gives a bunch of exercises and drills (what he calls cross training), which includes some vertical jumping. He also includes some box jumping which sounds like maybe what you mean by "usual plyometric bounding exercises". It's all designed to increase your stride length, and improve your efficiency.

By "usual plyometric bounding/overstriding", do you also mean Lydiard's springing, bounding, and steep hill running? These seem like, although exaggerated, still specific to running.

I once tried practicing adding more spring in my step, and basically overdid it, and developed a mild case of PF. So I guess it goes without saying, take it slowly.

I haven't read Fitzgerald's book. I spose I ougta, since you keep asking me, and then the next time you ask me, I can say yes, I have read Matt Fitzgerald's Brain Training.

I think uphill bounding is good, better than bounding on the flat, which is too far removed from the stride length and power appropriate to middle and long distance running, and also too much of an injury risk.

I suppose the vertical jumps I recomend are medium intensity, not jumping for heigh, but still quite powerful. The rate should be similar to fast running, so, the same as your stride rates, divided by two. I typically do about 100 jumps per minute, which is equivalent in rate to me running 60 second laps, i.e. 200 2.0 meter strides per minute.

How often? how many? how long for? 2-5 days per week, on your hard running days. Ranging from a few seconds to a minute or so repeated a few times. If you do them regularly, you will get bored before you get tired. The purpose is to practice the pushing off with more power, and to slighly increase tension in the calf muscles getting them read for fast running.

Jumps wrote:

Wellnow, you suggest doing two footed jumps to improve push off. Would it not be better to do one legged jumps instead? In running we only ever push off with one leg at a time, never two, so would it not make sense to practice pushing off just using one leg? Also, I would imagine hills would also be a great asset in this regard. The push off phase is very much extenuated during hill running due to the increased stretch of the calf and achilles, wouldn't you agree?

No, two legged vertical jumps are safe and easy to do. One legged vertical jumps are not the same as the push off in running, you will loose coordination, thus greatly reducing the training effect and greatly increasing injury risk. With two legged vertical jumps, each foot is reacting in a very similar way to what is does during fast running, landing on the outside, rolling inwards and pushing off in a similar way. The main differene in the push off is that in running the timing is extremely precise and determines much of your stride length and stride power.

When you run hills, your foot is in contact with the ground for much longer, for the simple reason that you are running much slower than you can on the flat.

OhTeeSee wrote:

wellnow,

I enjoy your input, I would be interested in reading your ideas on exercises, drills etc to improve muscular power specific too pure speed.

cheers

Well thanks, but I'm sorry, I don't know much about drills.

wellnow wrote:

I suppose the vertical jumps I recomend are medium intensity, not jumping for heigh, but still quite powerful. The rate should be similar to fast running, so, the same as your stride rates, divided by two. I typically do about 100 jumps per minute, which is equivalent in rate to me running 60 second laps, i.e. 200 2.0 meter strides per minute.

How often? how many? how long for? 2-5 days per week, on your hard running days. Ranging from a few seconds to a minute or so repeated a few times. If you do them regularly, you will get bored before you get tired. The purpose is to practice the pushing off with more power, and to slighly increase tension in the calf muscles getting them read for fast running.

That sounds identical to jumping rope.

rekrunner wrote:

Hence my question to you: does "low arterial pH" mean aerobic or anaerobic?

Sorry but I don´t use the ph as training frame of referential.

But I may guarantee that to do 30X200m 20X300m or 15X400m, that is 6k total distance done all flat out average pace considering the number of intervals and total distance, is more aerobic than to do 6x1000m 4Xmile or 3X2000m done the same way the short intrevals all flat out pace considering the number of intervals and the total distance, be the interval recovery what will be. All intervals done by the same runner of course. But Lydiard taugh the opposite.

What i may say about this subject is that run fast shorter distances with short recovery, what is the interval training concept, develops the aerobic mechanism as well as long continuous endurance runs. From short intervals one gets tolerance for the oxygen debt, but stresses the aerobic mechanism as well. It´s the reason why both may be done together during the same aerobic phase. Long continuous endurance runs and faster paces done by intervals shall be scheduled during the same training phase.

sound of silence wrote:

I may guarantee that to do 30X200m 20X300m or 15X400m, that is 6k total distance done all flat out average pace considering the number of intervals and total distance, is more aerobic than to do 6x1000m 4Xmile or 3X2000m done the same way the short intrevals all flat out pace considering the number of intervals and the total distance, be the interval recovery what will be. All intervals done by the same runner of course. But Lydiard taugh the opposite.

With your example I have to agree with Lydiard.

30x200, in 28 seconds for example, is more anaerobic than running 3x2000 in 6:00, with equal time rests.

An 800m runner would have an easier time with the former. A distance runner would have an easier time with the latter, and a hard time with the former. Obviously the 800m runner has a higher anaerobic capacity, and the distance runner has a higher aerobic capacity.

Then how can I accept your evidence, if you're unwilling (unable?) to commit to its meaning?

How can you assume Lydiard means "more aerobic", when the only thing he says is "low arterial pH level"?

I guarantee you he means "more anaerobic", and not "more aerobic".

You keep saying "Lydiard taught the opposite; passes wrong concepts; etc.", but nothing you've said about interval training contradicts any Lydiard quote or reference you've provided.

Even this example you give now doesn't contradict anything we've seen yet about Lydiard. You guarantee that short reps with short recovery are more "aerobic". Lydiard said longer reps with long recoveries are more "anaerobic". I don't see the contradiction. Where is this "Lydiard taught the opposite" idea coming from? Do you have another quote or reference that actually supports what you claim?

You need better evidence, or all we have are the baseless conclusions of an anonymous, self-proclaimed expert on intervals and Lydiard.

i guarantee it maybe wrote:

[quote]sound of silence wrote:

30x200, in 28 seconds for example, is more anaerobic than running 3x2000 in 6:00, with equal time rests.

An 800m runner would have an easier time with the former. A distance runner would have an easier time with the latter, and a hard time with the former. Obviously the 800m runner has a higher anaerobic capacity, and the distance runner has a higher aerobic capacity.

Thanks to refers an 800m runner, something that Lydiard doesnt consider. For him its equal training and equal stimulus for different individuals and and for different event specialists. For him 100miles it´s the same training for a 800m specialist, a 5k or 10k runner or a marathon runner.

Anyhow with your 30x200m in 28s and 3x2000m i see you dont understand the problem. It´s not with equal rest. What do you mean by equal rest ? For example 30X200m with 30secs rest it´s 15min total rest - 14:30 in reality. The same total rest for 3X2000m it would be some 7:15 min rest in between each set. If you put 1min receovery in between the 230x200m the same rest for 3X200m is 9:50 in between each 2000m.

Lydiard refers long rest for the long intervals. Under normal conditions the same runner that doe 30X200m in 28secs be with 30secs or 1 min rest is able to run 3x200m faster than 6:00 with long recovery independently of his best distance event. Be 800m or the marathon, Therefore your example is one wrong example.

sound of silence wrote:

Thanks to refers an 800m runner, something that Lydiard doesnt consider.

Yeah, like Lydiard never trained anyone who ran 800 meters.

Anyhow with your 30x200m in 28s and 3x2000m i see you dont understand the problem. It´s not with equal rest. What do you mean by equal rest ? For example 30X200m with 30secs rest it´s 15min total rest - 14:30 in reality.

Yeah I must have missed that having equal rest after running for 28 seconds comes out to 7 minutes and 15 seconds.

The general base-building and hill training phases are the same for 800m to marathon athletes, but once "track (anaerobic) training" started, the training becomes specific to the athlete and his event.

sound of silence wrote:

Thanks to refers an 800m runner, something that Lydiard doesnt consider. For him its equal training and equal stimulus for different individuals and and for different event specialists. For him 100miles it´s the same training for a 800m specialist, a 5k or 10k runner or a marathon runner.

first of all, what is aerobic for one person is not necessarily aerobic for another.... Lydiard used ALL types of training, but timing, like any other sport is key...drugs make Lydiards system obsolete because you get your base through a needle rather than roadwork.