Bill Rogers....was he good enought to finish in the 5 or 10 in todays marathons?

i think the race that hall has run in that had a field most comparable to what rogers competed against was the oly trials marathon. ritz, sell and meb were the best guys there and they are as faster (maybe a little faster) than the best guys rogers ran against. we all know what happened there.

you are smoking serious stuff if you think that rogers just would have elevated his game and run with 2:04 guys. at what point would you concede that rogers wouldn't beat people? 2:02? 2:00? or would he just keep on elevating his game to meet the level of his competition?

Ockerse wrote:

i think the race that hall has run in that had a field most comparable to what rogers competed against was the oly trials marathon. ritz, sell and meb were the best guys there and they are as faster (maybe a little faster) than the best guys rogers ran against. we all know what happened there.

You're ignorant. The Olympic Trials marathon fiedds that Rodgers faced were far above the wimpy field that Hall face.

Ockerse wrote:

i think the race that hall has run in that had a field most comparable to what rogers competed against was the oly trials marathon. ritz, sell and meb were the best guys there and they are as faster (maybe a little faster) than the best guys rogers ran against. we all know what happened there.

you are smoking serious stuff if you think that rogers just would have elevated his game and run with 2:04 guys. at what point would you concede that rogers wouldn't beat people? 2:02? 2:00? or would he just keep on elevating his game to meet the level of his competition?

You are trying to compare Sell, Ritz and Meb to Seko? WTF are you smoking? Meb can compare at the marathon, but who the hell is Sell?

Ockerse wrote:

you are smoking serious stuff if you think that rogers just would have elevated his game and run with 2:04 guys. at what point would you concede that rogers wouldn't beat people? 2:02? 2:00? or would he just keep on elevating his game to meet the level of his competition?

This is a nice post with good questions. They are pointed questions of course, because of course Rodgers couldn't run with 2:04 people now or continue to elevate his game to run 2:02 or 2:00 when necessary. He ran what he ran...can't go artificially giving him minutes off his best time just because it's 30 years later.

Anyway, glad to see I'm not the only one in this thread with a good dose of reality.

Are you referring to Toshihiko Seko, who has a lifetime best of 2:08:27 and whose olympic results were 2:14 (14th) and 2:13 (9th). Yes, I am comparing him to Meb, who has a lifetime best of 2:09:15 and who, i am assuming you already know this, has a silver in the olympics. what is wrong with you that you cannot understand someone saying that those 2 runners are similar?

you ask who sell is. he is just a 2:10 marathoner, who most people today never have heard of because 2:10, when you need to run 2:05 to win, doesn't get the job done. however, that 2:10 pr is very comparable to some of the best guys rogers had to run against. what is wrong with you that you cannot understand someone saying that a 2:10 guy today is comparable to a 2:10 or 2:11 guy 25 years ago?

Ockerse wrote:

Are you referring to Toshihiko Seko, who has a lifetime best of 2:08:27 and whose olympic results were 2:14 (14th) and 2:13 (9th). Yes, I am comparing him to Meb, who has a lifetime best of 2:09:15 and who, i am assuming you already know this, has a silver in the olympics. what is wrong with you that you cannot understand someone saying that those 2 runners are similar?

To be fair Meb ran that Olympic Trial with a stress fractured hip. He clearly wasn't a 2:09 runner in that condition. Ritz may eventually pop a really fast marathon but he hasn't done anything yet that is clearly better than a number of guys from Rodgers era. There were a boatload of Brian Sells in Rodgers era.

That said, Ryan Hall made that win look very very easy.

All you old guys are delusional. I'm 42 and Bill Rodgers was one of my all-time heros but even he acknowledges he was lucky to compete in his era. Frank Shorter I think believes he'd still dominate like Sammy Wanjuri at the Beijing Olympics.

When the Kenyans and Ethiopians got organized and more systematic with their national training systems in the late 1980's it was a whole new ball game. Yes there were great Kenyan and Ethiopian runners before but that was the tip of the iceburg. I recall the Kenyan stars of the 80's on the road circuit and they were by no means unbeatable (Michael Musyioki, William Musioki, Steve Kogo, Gidamis Shanga).

THe Ethiopians would put it together at World Cross Country and the Olympics in 1980 but then they would disappear. Once those countries got serious about developing all that talent the cream really rose to the top. The Kenyans that came over to run in college in U.S. like Nyambui as dominant in college as they were were not the level of the very best today. Why do you see such a huge gap between the whites and East Africans in a Grand Prix 10,000 (that's if the meet allows any whites to compete-usually its one or two that ran a time in the top 25 of the world).

I guess you think Bill Rodgers was the only one that would do what no others like him have and raise his level to stay with the worlds best today?

In 1991 the Kenyans swept the top 10 at the Cooper River Ridge Run. This had never happened before. A lot of older U.S. road racers got full time jobs after that year. It became a lot harder to make 40k a year on race earnings after that.

simply put, if you are going to compare racers from different eras, you are going to have to put them on equal footing re: equipment, training (adapting to both physical and psychological barriers/stress), competition, motivation, courses, weather, available resources, etc. Good hot stove discussion otherwise, but apples and oranges.To claim for example that Zatopek is not one of the top 25 distance athletes of all time because he wouldn't have finished in the top 20 at the 2010 Boston is ludicrous. Same can be said of Clarke, Nurmi, Demar, Clayton et al

To get back to Hall vs. Rodgers I think its reasonable to rank Rodgers 1979 Boston 2:09 AR superior to Halls 2010 race. The same for Beardsley and Salazar both on a warm day in 1982. And Greg Meyer's 2:09:00 win in 1983.

George Webbs wrote:

All you old guys are delusional. I'm 42 and Bill Rodgers was one of my all-time heros but even he acknowledges he was lucky to compete in his era. Frank Shorter I think believes he'd still dominate like Sammy Wanjuri at the Beijing Olympics.

(lots of stuff about East Africans)

Maybe I'm senile, but I thought the question was 1) Would Bill Rodgers finish in the top 5 or 10 of a modern major marathon? and 2) How does he compare with the best Americans of today, particularly Ryan Hall?

Delusional or not I believe the answer to 1, based on just lining up his times versus those placing top 5 or 10 today, is clearly he'd get a lot of top 10s and would perhaps crack a top 5. It would be silly to think he would rack up the same win record he did back in the day with today's competition, principally the depth of the East Africans, but he might catch lightening in a bottle on occassion the way Meb has and get a major victory.

Question 2 is harder to quantify because of differences in the eras. Clearly Ryan has run a lot faster and that's a strong argument. How to factor in the difference in training, racing schedules, competition, and so forth is where there is a lot of room for discussion. It'll never be answered conclusively. I'd probably go with Hall, but the fact that Rodgers was a standout among a pool of Americans with much more depth than we have today makes me wonder what might have been had they competed in each other's era.

Nice reply. I was going to chime into this very interesting thread, but you pretty much summed up the way I, an "old schooler", feel. Rodgers (and Shorter) would be factors in virtually all major marathon today? Would they run 2:04 and beat the East Africans to win? No.

FWIW, I was second place to Bill in 1975 at Boston and ran 2:11:54. The guy was just amazing that day, and the feeling was he had perhaps another 30-60 seconds in him, If he didn't stop a few times. (Also, if yours truly had been closer, I'm sure Bill would have run faster!!) Having said this, it must be pointed out that it was an incredible day weather-wise, with 50 degrees, low humidity, and a following/cross wind. That must be factored in, also, as I feel that I benefitted from the favorable weather. But, that was road-racing in those days. Boston still was considered the pinnacle of marathons, outside the Olympics and, perhaps Fukuoka. A win by an American was huge that day (and myself and Tom Fleming lead to a 1-2-3 U.S. sweep). I have always felt that Shorter and Rodgers had faster times in them, but "it is what it is." Put Shorter, especially on a flat course w/rabbits, and I wouldn't rule out a 2:07 marathon with his 5/10,000m times. Again, some coulda, woulda,but still fun.

Comparing Hall to Rodgers is interesting. Bill is indeed humble, and probably has a Ton of respect for Ryan. Because of that, he would have tried even harder to beat him!! He was the ultimate running warrior, IMHO.

Steve Hoag, Minneapolis

Note** I meant to say that Shorter and Rodgers WOULD definitely be factors in virtually all major marathons today! They would not win many, but they would be in the top 5-10.

I believe this to be the correct answer. I got off tangent answering those who think the top guys in previous eras could compete against the best of the world today. I don't think they would.

Yes I would argue that Nurmi would have been up there with Zatopek who could have competed with Clark who could have hung with Viren and Rono. But a whole new dynamic exists today that has resulted in the huge gap that runners like Geb, Tergat, Bekele, and a few their countrymen close behind. The financial incentive that motivates thousands in Kenya and Africa didn't exist prior to the late 1980's nor the organization and resources to reach all that talent.

Todd Williams was never competitive against the worlds best although he was at the same level against Americans and Europeans as Virgin, Salazar, Shorter, and Bickford who were. And he was just as fast.

As far as American marathoning only, 1984 Olympic Trials was the greatest collection of American talent by far. By then Rodgers was past his peak. 1980 would have been close but the boycott discouraged some top guys from competing.

The 2008 Olympic Trials up front (top 5-7 runners) was probably equivilant to 1980 and better than 1976. Depth wise 1980 was far better but it doesn't really matter that 150 guys broke 2:20 or 50 broke 2:15. The top guys aren't competing against them, they're racing the 2:11 guys or better.

Once again you fail to put things in a proper perspective. Take a look at what the world record was when Seko ran his time and compare the two. Then take a look at where 2:10 sits in relation to the current world record and you will find Seko much closer to the best times ever run in relationship to 2:10 and the best times currently being run.

you do realize that you make no sense? a 2:08 is a 2:08. the fact that other guys are running 2:04 or 2:08 is irrelevant. according to your logic johnny hayes, the world record holder in 1908 with a 2:55, is every bit as good as geb because he was the best in the world and he just would have elevated his game down to a 2:03 to stay with geb.

You really have no idea what you are talking about, but in your case I guess ignorance is bliss.

George Webbs wrote:

To get back to Hall vs. Rodgers I think its reasonable to rank Rodgers 1979 Boston 2:09 AR superior to Halls 2010 race. The same for Beardsley and Salazar both on a warm day in 1982. And Greg Meyer's 2:09:00 win in 1983.

________________________

You forgot to add that in that 2:09, Rodgers stopped at Cleveland Circle to tie his shoe. He did not hurry, or get flustered. He simply stopped, bent down, tied it, and gradually picked up his pace to the finish.

I would bet it was worth 20-30 seconds easily.

Also, the 1984 OT's in Buffalo were awesome. Beardsley was flying in the end in an all-out sprint. Fastest or not, he was sprinting along side of Alberto Salazar, and John Tuttle. They have a video of it. I think it's called ' no limits'

I doubt that. I'm not sure if Beardsley even made it to the start and he certainly wasn't there at the end.

It was Pfitzinger that outsprinted Salazar. The greatest American only marathon ever. Hard to believe it was 26 years ago.

Times changed. sub-2:20 marathoners could dream of having a shot of making it to 2:10 and being among the worlds best. Lots of inspired runners living the dream and holding off careers.

I don't think Beardsley ran that trials.