To Hadd: malmo disagrees with you. Can you explain the disconnect?

R.L. Scribner wrote:

organic crunchy peanut butter wrote:

Yeah, looking back at the results, this seems right. Once the best meets of 03 got started, Chebii only ended up winning two - Paris and Rome. It seems more impressive because these meets were back to back, and he outkicked Geb in one and both Geb and Bekele in the other, in very fast last laps. He didn't win any of the big meets after that, though.

Always nice to see you posting, OCPB.

Given that you're the resident Chebii expert, did he actually close a 13:10 race in 51? I recall his awesome kicks, but was it actually such a fast race that he finished in 51? I remember him winning some really slow 3k (like 8:30) with an outrageous last lap, perhaps 51.

Scrib and Chubba,

Using my highly scientific distance running history research methods, which I will discuss below, I believe I've found what you're looking for.

First, I went to the IAAF site, and typed in Abraham Chebii.

from the IAAF profile on Chebii (you don't have to read all this, I'll summarize below)

"Abraham Chebii may be the most explosive kicker in recent distance running history. Even in an era in which a top-class 5000 runner has to be able to close a 13:00 race with a 55 second last lap, Chebii stands out. In the Grand Prix Final at the end of the 2002 season, he clocked 50.68 for his last 400 meters, and he didn't start his full sprint until 250 to go. As he says, however, "It is easy to kick when the pace is slow. You must be able to follow a fast pace and then kick." Which is what he trained himself to do over the 2002-2003 off-season. The most convincing evidence of that training's effectiveness came in the Rome GL, where Haile Gebrselassie, having been outsprinted by Chebii in Paris, started driving for home from 600 meters out, with Kenenisa Bekele and Chebii in tow. Haile was spent by the final turn and moved wide to let Kenenisa through, but Chebii slipped through the gap as well and bounded after the sprinting Kenenisa. He passed the Ethiopian with 50 to go and was timed at sub-25 for his last 200 -- in a 12:57 race."

So, in that passage is the slow 3k Scrib mentioned, but also verification that Chebii split 24 something for the last 200 of a 12:57 5k, in which he beat Bekele (damn.)

Next, my methods became a little more complex, as I located the "competition archive" and looked through the summer of 2003 to see if I could find a split for that entire last lap in Rome.

The relevant article noted that the bell lap time for this race was 12:03, so only about 54 for this one.

I always thought that he must have been in the low 50s in his finish of the Reebok Grand Prix several years back when he set the old all comers record (13:04), but according to another IAAF article he only closed in 54 that race (probably with another blistering last 200 of 25ish guessing from the tape I watched).

Finally, I found the best method of all: typing in "Abraham Chebii 51 second last lap" into a search engine. From there I found an article from the Daily Emerald, a UOregon student paper, saying Chebii's last lap in that 13:08 at the 2003 Pre Classic was a 51.

Although you have to trust a student sportswriter to accept that.

Sooo, finally, I dug around those search results a little bit more, and found this from Race Results Weekly:

- so Chebii DID close a 13:08 in 51.9. I think those are the race results Chubba is quoting from memory, from the look of it.

OK, I think I've just spent way too much time and effort to solidify my position as the resident Chebii expert. But it was worth it. I think. When he's on, the guy is just amazing to watch at the end of a race.

Well, I certainly feel like an idiot.

Wubba, congrats, I concede - you speak with authority and confidence on the subject and I think it's clear you're the new Letsrun Chebii expert.

Hyperbole much? wrote:

When did Chebii run 51 in a 13:10 race? When was destgroying the best in the world. Chebii had a couple of wins in his entire career. He wasn't destroying anyone.

Thanks for the help guys. In that form he could beat Bekele.

chubba wrote:

Hyperbole much? wrote:

When did Chebii run 51 in a 13:10 race? When was destgroying the best in the world. Chebii had a couple of wins in his entire career. He wasn't destroying anyone.

Thanks for the help guys. In that form he could beat Bekele.

Not so fast. Chebii wasn't "destroying" anyone. He had a couple victories in major races over his entire career. In championship races (please don't think that the WAF is a championhip event) he was no where to be found. In fact, in most of his races he not a threat and routinely gets left in the dust over the last lap.

Most reasonable people wouldn't call 51.9 a 51 second lap.

Wubba, thanks for putting in the time and effort to crack this case for me.

Organic crunchy, your post was just way too long and boring for me to care.

Also, it appears that Bekele closed in 52.63 in Lausanne 2003, in which he ran 13:06.05.

http://www.iaaf.org/news/athletes/newsid=26783.html

And according to his Wikipedia article, he was also under 25 for the last 200 in that one.

R.L. Scribner wrote:

Also, it appears that Bekele closed in 52.63 in Lausanne 2003, in which he ran 13:06.05.

http://www.iaaf.org/news/athletes/newsid=26783.html

And according to his Wikipedia article, he was also under 25 for the last 200 in that one.

Chebii went sub 25 last 200 in a faster race (12:57) compared to Bekele´s 13.06.

wubba wrote:

Not so fast. Chebii wasn't "destroying" anyone. He had a couple victories in major races over his entire career. In championship races (please don't think that the WAF is a championhip event) he was no where to be found. In fact, in most of his races he not a threat and routinely gets left in the dust over the last lap.

Most reasonable people wouldn't call 51.9 a 51 second lap.

I never claimed Chebii was a championship runner, but held him up as a guy who could beat anyone on his day, and has done so.

Yes he beat Bekele

Yes he beat Geb

When they were very near their peaks.. who else can claim that?

RE: Calling 51.9 51... that is anal and you know it, I also said 13.10 and not 13.08, is that unreasonable? I was approximating from memory. Happy condescending.

Hadd wrote:Rebecca Romero ... became the first British woman ever to compete in two different sports at the Olympic Games when she rode in the individual pursuit in Beijing. In winning the Olympic Gold, she also became only the second woman of any country (after Roswitha Krause of East Germany) to win a medal in two different sports at Summer Games.

On a related note, Canadian Clara Hughes won two bronze Olympic medals in cycling in the 1996 summer games, and followed this up with bronze in long track speed skating in the 2002 winter games, followed by silver and gold in 2006.

darkness wrote:

No, your warmup should not be included and no, other runners would NOT have much better results.

That is the DEFINITION of an anomaly, that it is outside the mainstream and normal experience of someone or something.

Sorry, but you're wrong, there are many runners who could do much better if they had a more intensive warm up. I see them all the time, but trying to convince them that they should be faster than me because they have youth on their side is difficult. These types of runner believe that running fast before a race will tire them out, and so they jog, do a few stretches and strides and they think they are ready to race, but in reality, they are crapping themselves at the prospect of all the pain they will endure. The wrong mindset and one doomed to failure.

Regarding many of us having some anomaly. It's not a far fetched idea, really if you actually stop and think about it. We can't be average in everything can we?

Rebecca Romero is very very driven. Since changing sports, she will not accept failure, even at the highest level. Her psychology is what sets her apart from the others.

Hadd wrote:

Here's a question for wellnow: I get all your advocating skill-training and do not doubt its validity within a total-training framework, but just off the top of my head I would guess sprinters, more than distance runners would spend a greater amount of time on the skill-related, neurological adaptations to running.

Okay, they do all the speed and resistance training, generate all the metabolic adaptations, but they must spend a significant amount of time on skill-learning. I would think you'd agree with that. Now, if I understood you correctly, you believe the skill side of running to be more valuable, more significant, than the metabolic side. Have I got that right?

So, (here's the question), why did Marion Jones take EPO?

Neuromuscular coordination in running: stride rate x stride length. It's kinda important whether you be a sprinter or a distance runner.

You aren't asking intelligent questions Hadd, I'm disapointed in you, what kind of a running guru asks how important skill is in distance running?

Here I'll state my case again for you:

The metabolic adaptions come quickly, normally naturally to regular exercisers. The neuromuscular coordination required to reach a very high level of competitiveness requires much more work.

Regarding the altitude training that the Ethiopians do. You and darkness seem to have missed the point. They train at 8000-10000ft where there is 25-30% less oxygen. But in distance running, this slows them down by just 5-10% and due to the lower air resistance they can sprint slightly faster.

This means that their running economy increases by a considerable margin.

When I watched Tirunesh Dibaba and Sentayehu Ejigu in the 5000m in the London Grand Prix on Saturday, they were not breathing hard when they reached the bell. This very is significant. It shows that they are able to run at a very fast pace without acidosis. Did you know that lactate production buffers adidosis? So they must be continually recruiting fast twitch fibers for 4600m and then recruiting even more for the last lap. I will add that I don't think that acidosis causes fatigue, but that fatigue causes acidosis. It's a conundrum, sometimes I can run this way and sometimes not.

wellnow wrote:

Sorry, but you're wrong, there are many runners who could do much better if they had a more intensive warm up.

Sorry, but you're wrong. They would not do any better. They would do worse.

It's so much fun to throw out empty assertions and then pretend like you've actually said something real.

Wheee...

As usual, you´re avoiding to answer direct questions, so I´ll ask again: why did Marion Jones take EPO?

We are all very, very tired of your type of argument. You constantly avoid to answer questions. Instead you call people stupid, ignorant etc. What if people like JD or Canova would come here and disagree with you? I bet you would call them ignorant assholes, too, and (as usual) without a single shred of evidence to back up your claims.

Check out the post the post on the other thread where he tries to lecture Jack Daniels about VDOT. Priceless.

Hadd wrote:

So, (here's the question), why did Marion Jones take EPO?

wellnow wrote:

You aren't asking intelligent questions Hadd, I'm disapointed in you

It's a good strategy to declare the question dumb. It sure beats having to address it.

how old wrote: Check out the post the post on the other thread where he tries to lecture Jack Daniels about VDOT. Priceless.

dude who knows some stuff wrote:Link? Help a brother out. Need a good laugh.

I think it's this one

wellnow: "But I DO understand the VDOT concepts Jack. The problem is you have miscalculated. If the VDOT is supposed to be a mean value, then 85 is an impossible figure.

Look Jack, how can I report your research if your VDOT table contradicts your work on running economy? I can't until you admit you got the numbers wrong."

Ahahahahahahaa...........! :-)

That little exchange with Dr. Jack neatly defines Mr. wellnow's knowledge and understanding of scientific principles and peer reviewed research.

Thanks man, made my day!

stuck for an answer wrote:

[quote]Hadd wrote:

So, (here's the question), why did Marion Jones take EPO?

since i am wellnow clone and he seems to be coward to answer Hadd's quetion let me try this one. She did take EPO because EPO improves the neuromuscular coordination.