My bad. Leck went to Western State.
My bad. Leck went to Western State.
Ghost of Ashenfelter wrote:
OK, Avo thinks Virgin wasn't the best. Malmo thinks he was.
. . .
Now, to answer a question from about five pages ago, Dennis Leck was another Alamosa guy. He made two world XC teams I think.
I do believe that Kedir was the best cross-country runner in the world in 1981 (and 1982), and probably would have beaten Virgin if he hadn't been confused about the laps and hadn't sprinted a lap early. Malmo, of course, is absolutely, positively certain that Virgin would have beaten Kedir anyway, because Virgin was the "dominant runner" of the era and had some special mojo or something that nobody else had.
Yes, I remember Dennis Leck. (I ran against him, too.) He was a very muscular guy, as I recall. I think that he may still have the record for the Bolder Boulder "citizen's race" -- sub-29:30, I believe, which is remarkably fast for the "amateur" division of that race. Of course, he had no business being in the citizen's race that year, since those were the days when anyone who could run around 31 could gain entry to the elite race, but winning the citizen's race guaranteed you half an hour of local television coverage, so it was great publicity.
Ghost of Ashenfelter wrote:
My bad. Leck went to Western State.
Dennis ran for Western, but he also made the US cross team while training in Alamosa under Vigil.
malmo wrote:
2:20 wannabe .... wrote:38.4, for a 300m? ...... no way Virgin had that kind of speed. How do you know that he ran that fast?Because I was right next to him.
Awesome.
Not just POD, but POY!
Who the hay are you Avocado? Have we heard of you? PRS? Back the big talking up.
guacamole cubed wrote:
Who the hay are you Avocado? Have we heard of you? PRS? Back the big talking up.
You mean because my PRs are so highly relevant to whether Kedir might have won the 1981 world cross-country championship if he hadn't been confused about the lap count? You must be confusing me with the guy who thinks that running 300-meter repetitions with Craig Virgin is highly relevant to that issue. I'm not that guy. I'm the guy he called a "f***ing idiot."
This was a happy little thread when we were just reminiscing about Pat Porter and the rest of the gang in Alamosa. What's Pat up to these days, anyway? There was a brief article about him a few years ago in Runner's World or some such publication. I think he had a construction business or something in New Mexico.
guacamole cubed wrote:
Who the hay are you Avocado? Have we heard of you? PRS? Back the big talking up.
Very intelligent argument. VERY!
Avocados Number wrote:
guacamole cubed wrote:Who the hay are you Avocado? Have we heard of you? PRS? Back the big talking up.
You mean because my PRs are so highly relevant to whether Kedir might have won the 1981 world cross-country championship if he hadn't been confused about the lap count? You must be confusing me with the guy who thinks that running 300-meter repetitions with Craig Virgin is highly relevant to that issue. I'm not that guy. I'm the guy he called a "f***ing idiot."
This was a happy little thread when we were just reminiscing about Pat Porter and the rest of the gang in Alamosa. What's Pat up to these days, anyway? There was a brief article about him a few years ago in Runner's World or some such publication. I think he had a construction business or something in New Mexico.
AN--i appreciate your and historical insights, malmo's too--(but) i am glad to return to remembering my friend pat. his focus was laser sharp. that coupled with his work ethic produced excellent results.
Intelligence, tactics, pace judgement, etc. are required to win any race. Obviously, Kedir was not able to come to terms with this part of his race that day. The best man won.
Get over it Avocado, Virgin ran faster than Kedir, Virgin never lost to Kedir. Virgin was World Champion and he did it twice. Move on. Your filibuster has failed.
Interesting thoughts from both combatants, but there is relevance to Malmo's point about Virgin's workout. Virgin's finishing speed has been contested throughout and this was evidence as to CV's leg speed even after a significant track workout. Also, Malmo was responding to someone who questioned if CV could run a 38.4 300.
Mr. Avocado's PR's are irrelevant of course as he or anyone has a right to an opinion after presenting cogent facts to support it.
My take on the discussion is that it would have been interesting to see what would have happened had Kedir not moved a lap early in the '81 XC Worlds. I was not aware that this had happened. However, all we have is the actual results. We can assume he would have been closer to Virgin, but perhaps Virgin would have held off any challengers that day.
The Overseer wrote: We can assume he would have been closer to Virgin, but perhaps Virgin would have held off any challengers that day.
Actually you can't assume as much. Kedir was right with Virgin to the finish. Virgin didn't merely "hold off" Kedir, he blew his doors off with 150m to go.
malmo wrote:
One more post then I'm done.
Actually, you've made eleven posts since you made that promise. You count worse than Kedir did.
You are wrong in your description of what happened in the race, as has been documented by people who actually witnessed and reported on the race. I realize that you were there, and I was not, but both of us had an equally good view of what was happening at the front of the pack that day.
I raced Porter, or was in some races as Porter, in college. He did have great improvement between his freshman and sophomore year. The one thing he had, and I think it can be attributed to the altitude training, was his aggressiveness early in a race. I believe he knew this was an asset he had vs. sea level competitors. He always liked to put everyone in oxygen debt early, and let the toughest competitors survive. Altitude, attitude and pure mental toughness were the traits I observed. I was never in a race with him when he had developed his talent that was tactical. He was willing to force the pace.
This is a good thread turned bad. Anyone who doesn't know about Pat Porter's prowess in XC racing (and track), or even doubts it--should read some history.
He was a dominant figure for the time-fearless, aggressive, and hard working to boot. Virgin was as dominant in his time and deserves the same if not more due to slightly more international success.
They were (and in some cases still are) great ambassadors for our country's distance running. At their prime, they were the best--can't we just agree and accept that? Let's spend less time typing and more time training and focusing like they did. Out.
I saw Pat Porter run in the 1987 World Cross Country trials in Dallas. He was in the lead for most of the race, but John Easker pulled away to win by about 40 meters. (I think Plasencia and Eyestone were third and fourth.) That might have been Easker's last serious race, as I don't think he even went to the World Cross Country championships that year despite having been the top qualifier in the US trials. It's too bad that he retired, as he looked incredibly strong, even while using an asthma respirator during the race.
Easker had really big guns for a distance runner.
after reading this thread a friend told me a story about pat the other day. he once did 6-8xmile (i cant remember if he said it was 6 or 8) in a 414 average with 3 minutes rest! i guess gelindo bordin was in thew workout as well and was getting his ass stomped by porter. that is no joke at 7500ft! porter would have had it made if the olympics were at altitude like in 1968.
It should be clarified that the "mile" at Cole Park in Alamosa is short. I don't remember the exact amount, but Vigil was trying to make an allowance for the altitude. Regardless, Pat's "mile" repeats were the real deal.
I have to admit, I was always surprised that Porter didn't have faster track credentials. He did possess raw footspeed (didn't he run a 4:01 mile at the end of a workout once?) and he trained like a man possessed. But it seems as though, every year, he trained to peak for world cross and then held the peak for about a month until Mt. Sac, where he typically won with a sub-28:00 effort, but then he faded from competition. I know he ran a 27:30ish on the road, though there were some questions as to the legitimacy of the course, but here was Pat, routinely mixing it up in world cross with the best guys who were, in theory, 30 seconds faster than he was over 10k.