JIM RYUNS STORY!!!! 5:30 MILE TO 4:10 MILE

i just wanted to thank everyone for contriubting to this thread, it's been really really fascinating. Just remember that this is all friendly debate, i dont want to turn such an awesome awesome thread into a petty shouting match. drewr, thanks so much for this, your father was an inspiration to us all.

Living in the Past wrote:

I don't think

QED.

I'd be a whole lot cooler if i was. I was just about to ask you if you were retarded.

HRE, past living, look, lydiard was the most influential coach ever. One of the very best for sure. But clearly, he look at what Ryun was really doing and see that he was running well off running AEROBICALLY....but you wing nuts only see the stuff run on a track, must be hard intervals, must be anaerobic? It wasn't hard. Look at the times and the distance and the recovery? Pretty please...with sugar on top?

I heard Lydiard say, toward the end of his wonderful life, that the Moroccans are doing my training. THEY ARE NOT DOING LYDIARDS TRAINING. (and to talk more about the Moroccans is off topic) Ryun was very close to doing Lydiard type of stuff. It was aerobic. 800s in 245? Come on ladies...surely you know thats 530 pace. I don't believe him not running as well later on in his career was due to "interval training"....yes, he was doing stuff on the track and yes they were intervals, but and this is Lydiard stuff so listen close, the STUFF ON THE track was with volume and aerobic.

Living in the past, I think I know you. Does your middle name begin with B and end in R?

In regard to the question about repetition running versus continuous threshold running, use of high volume repetitions at strong but aerobic intensity with relatively short rests is actually fairly productive for pure middle distance runners. I'd imagine a number of Ryun's "slower" runs also touched on that component of "threshold" running from time to time, so he probably did include a little of it. You are correct, though, when you mention the probability of eventual burnout from a schedule that has that much medium or fast running in it with relatively few days devoted to true regeneration. People can do some amazing things and recover pretty quickly with no apparent need for super easy days when they're 17-20 years old, but it does catch up with them if they don't make some changes in that type of routine. Few people knew that in Ryun's day, though. We have a better handle on it now, but I bet even Lydiard, in spite of his criticism of Ryun's training, wasn't 100% sure at the time what would happen with Ryun down the road.

Back to the present, I'm glad you aren't sugar coating your criticism of frequent use of that type of training. To be fair, though, the 1960s saw a lot of middle distance runners peaking in their early 20s without any consideration of having longer careers, so getting to the top ASAP was actually considered a plus. Professional running was many years away and post-college running careers were short if they existed at all, so premature burnout wasn't as much of a concern. Besides, what's that saying about it being better to burn out than to never catch fire? I'm with you on the Timmons plan contributing to an early peak for Ryun, but he was the best in the world for a short time and had he taken a longer term approach, other facets of life (career, family) might have sidetracked him before he ever reached the level he did. So maybe the meteoric rise wasn't all that bad for his era.

and remember, we are talking about the 60s, the dark ages of running....people were still learning how to properly train. These guys set the stage and were pioneers. Timmons getting Ryun to run as well as he did back then is amazing. There is no question of Ryun's amazing talent and Timmons ability to bring it out of him.

i feel like beating the crap out of someone.

I know, I know, we all do. Go to a happy place or something. Swede, are you actually from Sweden or something?

Jonny Danielson was a great one...and freakey tall...any idea how tall. I would love to see if he is the the tallest fastest distance man ever... 341 1500/742 3K/1320 5K/2755 10K...impressive to say the least.

Living in the past wrote:

As for Ryun being a whiner, though, it may be that his blood Ph was too acidic from lack of recovery.

You're a f***ing idiot. Blood doesn't get acidic from lactic acid. Lactic acid is buffered immediatly and lactate is recycled just as soon as intense activity ceases.

The main reason why Ryun did not peak at 25 or 26 is that there was no opportunity or incentive to continue training back then.

[quote]Catch the Red Eye wrote:

I'd be a whole lot cooler if i was. I was just about to ask you if you were retarded.

HRE, past living, look, lydiard was the most influential coach ever. One of the very best for sure.

Hmmm, yeah, great coach and great sport destroyed by epo cheats....

no argument here

great sport destroyed by epo cheats.

You said it, brutha.

Drew: I have been in and out and hope you are still there. I wanted to present a week in April, 1964, from a bunch of pages of Jim’s training that Timmy gave me about 40 years ago. Since you posted some weeks, I figured it would be OK for me to add this one. I have a lot more of these and will add 1 particular race (Compton) so you can see how meticulous Timmy was. Also in answer to others’ comments about reaching one’s potential, etc. I have my own theory, and I guess a theory is as good as anyone else can produce, so here goes.

Sunday AM – church PM 10 miles in 65 minutes

Monday AM – 5 miles 32 minutes PM Cals + 2mile in 9:55 + cals + 2Xmile with 8-min send off in 5:19 and 5:10 + dumbbells (33) + 3X880 with 6-min sendoff in 2:35, 2:28, 2:24 + white weights(70) + 6X400 on 3-min sendoff in 65 average + Blud weights (33) + 4mile cool down

Tuesday AM – 6miles PM – Cals + 6X400 on 3-min sendoff in 64 + 1320 stride + 10X140 on 2-min send off in 18 sec average + white weights (70) + 5X3min on 6-min send off + 5X220 on 2-1/2 min send off in 31 average + warm down + shower (shower not mentioned on Monday)

Wednesday AM 3 miles –stride PM – Cals + 20X440 on 3-min sendoff 71 average + dumbbells (33) + 10X440 3-min send off in 69 average + white weights + 10X440 on 3-min sendoff in 69 + blue weights (33) + 10X440 on 3-min sendoff in 67

Thursday AM – 4miles stride PM – cals + mile + 6X 880 on 6min sendoff in 2:52 + calisthenics + 6X880 on 6-min sendoff in 2:53 + calisthenics + 6X880 on 6-min sendoff in 2:44 + warmdown – 1-1/2 miles

Friday AM – 4miles stride PM – calisthenics + mile on 10-min send off + 1320 on 10min send off + 880 on 10min send off + 660 on 10 min sendoff + 440 on 10min sendoff + 3 miles college hill and back + warm down 1 mile Downpour rain – weight drills inside workout

Saturday AM – Bus to KC PM – Washington Invitational Downpour rain, track flooded & muddy 31.0, 65.5, 1:36.9, 2:18.5, 2:56.0, 3:33.0, 4:02.0, 4:33.2

Anyone interested can add up the total mileage (or time spent). Interesting to note that the Wednesday session (not counting the dumbells and weights) totaled 150 minutes (50X3-min sendoff 440s)

Compton mile Saturday, June 6

110 220 330 440 Goal 440s Actual

Goal 13.0 27.0 42.0 58.5 58.5 59.2

Actual 13.5 29.4 43.3 59.2

Goal 1:14.1 1:29.7 1:45.3 2:01.0 62.5 62.3

Actual 1:14.5 1:30.8 1:45.8 2:01.5

Goal 2:16.2 2:31.4 2:46.7 3:02.0 61.0 61.3

Actual 2:17.5 2:34.0 2:47.3 3:02.8

Goal 3:17.0 3:32.0 3:45.5 3:59.0 57.0 56.2

Actual 3:17.4 3:32.0 3:45.0 3:59.0

As for my theory on attaining potential -- I think people who have long careers probably don’t reach their potential (or high fraction thereof) when first pretty successful and as they go on in their career and maybe lose absolute potential, they learn to come closer to the absolute potential that they do have, thus staying near the top. Others, who have shorter careers, reach a higher fraction of their absolute potential earlier in their running career and as time goes have less left to attain so continued improvement is not so likely.

Jim’s test results over a period of years. Since this has been published I feel OK divulging it here.

Wt-kg Age %fat VO2max VEmax Economy

1967 73.0 20 ----- 5.9L 190L (lower better)

1968 73.0 21 ----- 5.7L 184L -----

1968 72.5 21 ----- 5.8L 180L 179

1970 82.0 23 10.0 5.3L 181L 187

1970 79.2 23 9.0 5.6L 188L 181

1970 77.2 23 8.0 5.6L 189L 172

1970 72.6 23 7.0 5.4L 180L 179

1971 73.2 24 ----- 5.5L 185L 178

1972 73.0 25 6.6 5.9L 198L 174

Not proof read so may have some spelling errors

I haven't read Kenny Moore's latest book, because I think he's a crummy writer

HUH?? Kenny Moore a crummy writer? THAT, "Living In The Past", I really don't get. You just might oughta' read his "Bowerman and the Men of Oregon" before you make such a broad sweeping statement...what do the rest of you posters think?

MF

Honestly, I was disappointed. I found BATMOO not very interesting (= boring) in some spots, and poorly produced.

I loved some of his magazine articles but think the book format revealed his weaknesses.

I havee been a Jim Ryun fan for years and would love to hear some stories about his training or racing. Since many people here have 1st hand experience with him it would be great if you could share some stories.

hmmmm...well there you go...I guess not EVERYbody loved this tome as did I, although most everyone that I know who read it, did no want it to end...it may also have to do with the age of the reader in that it really addreses those who are real cognizant of 50s and 60s and 70s USA track...regardless of whether or not you enjoyed the book (it ain't no contrived Grisham page turner), its not fair, in my opinion, to call Kenny Moore a crummy writer.

MF

and Drew, although my aging recall doesn't remember EXACTLY where we met, (althogh I do recall your brother also being with us) it may have been Steamboat in Peoria (KC Track, does that sound right?)and others...it was when your Dad had just turned 40 and was looking at making a little masters comeback and we were wooing him to be one of our key spokesmpersons...I clearly remember picking up Jim and your mom at the airport in Boston and spending a few days together during our negotiations...we had a real nice visit including an extensive visit to our promo warehouse where we invited them to shop gratis for the entire Ryun clan...it was very cool fun!

can you please explain what VEmax and the numbers for economy mean?

thanks a lot. How does one go about measuring economy. I have heard you talk about vV02 max, is it related?

Catch the Red Eye wrote:

800s in 245?

Many of the 880's and longer were run in the park, with lots of ups and downs and the distance might not have been accurate.

not to jump in, but it seems that it would be threshold as well. From Jtupper's post, it seems it was in fact 800m. Are you sure you were there?