2-time world xc champ Craig Virgin talks about XC.... And we listen.

Why do you say that? I don't see it.

Sandoval was always somewhat inconsistent over the years, because his main focus was getting an MD. Running he fit in around that. But he was very, very talented with great range when he was ready -- 1:49 800 - 27:47 10000m. I believe he took a year off from med school for 1980 and was training at home in the NM mountains.

His performance at the 1980 marathon trials certainly made it look like he was as fit as he had ever been. I don't think that the weather in Moscow would have been a problem for him.

Thanks for the heads up. 1:49 800? When did he do that? I've never heard that before. I knew that Jeff Wells and John Lodwick had legitimate wheels.

Apparently he did it in college -- 1:49.5. I don't have a citation other than an SI article by Kenny Moore on the 1980 trials.

That still sounds like apocrypha to me. Sandoval is a year older than me but I cannot find a single NCAA result from the years 72-76 in either XC or track. As far as that 1:49 800, that's something that everyone from my era would've known about, but don't. I would like to see the actual citation?

Now if you were talking Jeff Wells or John Lodwick, that's a horse of a different color. Those guys were wolves in sheep's clothing.

Wells was known during college at Rice as having a nasty kick, running his final 200s in 26-point often. Additionally, his verifiable results show up everywhere in both XC and track. At Athletics West I watched Jeff walk-down Suleiman Nyambui from waaaaay back in a 5000 at Helsinki. He fell just short. I think they were 2nd and 3rd in that race. When I sprinted across the track and excitedly proclaimed that he was like Juha Vaatainen, Wells replied quietly, "Ain' no Vat'nin, George, ain' no Vat'nin." ;-)

Lodwick was a 1:52.4 half miler in high school. That's 880 yards, not 800 meters! I think that he was faster or equal to future Boston College 800 legend Keith Francis that year.

I'll reserve judgment on that 1:49 for now. Thanks in advance for any actual data you can dig up.

I think a lot of the idea that Sandoval could have medalled in Moscow is because he came fourth in the '76 Trial and won the '80 Trial in 2:10:19 along with a 27:47 ten thousand which was quite a time then. US marathoning was good enough then that you would have considered the Trials winner to have a real shot at a medal.

As I was digging around to see what I could find about him I came across this:https://marathonview.net/marathon-results-of-Tony-Sandoval.

It looks like he let go of running marathons after 1981 for twenty six years and then came back to it with some very slow races even for a regular guy in his 50s and 60s let alone a former Trials winner. More power to him.

1981 IAAF World Cross Country Championships – Senior men's race - Wikipedia https://share.google/a7DWWpuRD2fihs1EX

1. Craig Virgin USA 35:05

51. George Malley USA 36:12 (Malmo)

Other USA

8. Thom Hunt USA 35:23

17. Mark Nenow USA 35:42

18. Bill Donakowski USA 35:42

19. Bruce Bickford USA 35:42

51. George Malley USA 36:12 (Malmo)

63. Dan Dillon USA 36.20

80. Mike McGuire USA 36:30

103. Mark Muggleton USA 36:50

Team race (6 to score) 9 to run, per team. Malmo scored (6th USA)

1 Ethiopia 81

2 USA 114

3 Kenya 220

By the way that was a great run by Malmo because by being sixth scorer for the USA he contributed to the USA's silver medal in the world championship cross-country so he can pride himself on having a silver medal as a team member and contributor in a World Championship.

Behind him on that day were many world class runners, too numerous to mention.

No it wasn't a great run. It was a salvage run, the result of a very bad set of circumstances. The week before WXC I had set the World Best at 12k.

On February 24th, two weeks before world xc trials (March 7) I had badly injured my plantar fascia by stepping in a rut on a frozen golf course. My plan was to just run as slow as possible to make sure I got into the top 9. But my fitness was so good I was forced to take the lead much of the race because they were running way too slow for me. About two miles to go Rose and Virgin made a break, which was just fine with me. I was 2nd in the trials, behind Virgin and Nick Rose (1st and 3rd at 1980 WXC)

My plan for the next three weeks was to do a lot of easy running, with one race each weekend, hoping that my heel would be better by WXC. That was wishful thinking since PF is an insidious injury that never gives you an indication of progress or regress.

On March 15 Mike Roche set an AR at the NJ 10 miler while I finished 2nd, 46:57 to 47:02, the two fastest times ever by Americans. Not bad.

The next week (March 21) I set the AR/WB for 12k at Holyoke St Patricks Day. My foot was holding up so far. I wouldn't be so lucky any longer.

Only a week to Worlds.

At the same time I developed sciatica in the opposite leg, leaving me powerless for the entire week in Madrid. It was bad. Now I had TWO flat tires. It was very difficult to finish the daily runs I attempted for the entire week. Since I had conceded defeat, and decided to give up my earned spot on the first row of the 2-2-2-2-1 chimney start for the 9th spot. Started out DFL.

With a lap to go I come up on Dan Dillon (12th at 1980 WXC), normally one of the most reliable American XC runners, who let me know I was now 6th man (scoring). What an inconvenient time for Dan to have a bad day!

So I sucked it up and passed as many as I could over that last lap. One of them being Bronislaw Malinowski, who I would see for the last time. "Brono" died in a tragic car accident six month later.

I wished we could've had an alternate backup. We could have substituted Roche for me and we would have been just fine.

Here's another link for Sandoval, and for Jeff Wells.

https://more.arrs.run/runner/4692

https://more.arrs.run/runner/4566

To beat Ethiopia, which had 81 points Malmo would have had to finish 16th, assuming the other USA runners finished where they finished and this would have given the USA 79 points to beat Ethiopia ( 81).

Question: Nick Rose, a Brit, ran in a USA trials? or did I read it wrong?

In any case, congratulations on running and representing the USA in a World Championships. That's a phenomenal feat. Just reading the names of your teammates (Virgin, Nenow, Donakowski, Bickford, etc) .. I think all those guys were sub 28:00/10,000 runners (or would become sub 28:00). Sub 28:00 in the 80's was world class...among the very best

Correction: Bill Donakowski 28:13.9 (1979) - his brother, G.Donakowski 27:58.41 (1986), Bickford 27:37.17 (85), Virgin 27:29.16 (1980), Nenow 27:20.56 (1986), Hunt 27:59.1 (1982)

For the record, George Malley, 1955, (Malmo)

1500 3:40.21 (1978)

3000 steeple 8:21.72 (1978)

10,000 28:53 (1981)

15km 44:34 (1980)

10 miles 47:02 (1981)

Half 1:01:43 (1982)

Marathon 2:12:23 (1985)

The 1:01:43 half marathon really resonates with me and I'm thinking teleported to this era, that might translate to 60:00-61:00. Marathon teleported to these days, might read, 2:09:00 or better.

In any case 3:40/1500 (sub 4 mile equivalent) to 2:12/marathon is impressive range. Guys like Ritz and Carlos Lopes had almost spot on 1500 equivalent times.

Had i not wasted my time on NYCM and ran Chicago instead I wouldn't need a time machine. You play the cards that you're dealt, not the ones you want.

FWIW, my 15k PR is actually 43;43 on the track. My 10k pr was a split in that race. Like Teg, I don't run no stinkin' 10k. Cheers.

Looks like you never attained your potential at 10,000, because you didn't enter races like Stanford, Walnut, etc.

I'm guessing your potential at 10,000 would have been anywhere from 27:55-28:20. Close to someone like Gary Bjorklund (27:47 at Walnut, 1984) or Bill Rodgers 28:04 (Eugene, 1976).

Your 3:40/1500, however, is faster than most of the aforementioned sub 28:00 guys.

In today's debate, a distance runner who can run 3:40, is well equipped to run 7:45/13:10/27:20. Different era, different times, different shoes (minimalist at the time). I still remember those Tiger Onitsuka plimsolls which offered minimal cushioning. Runners today would laugh and refuse to wear such shoes . An aberration?

We can only conjecture what might have been.

Thanks, but I never thought about running the 10,000, and those races at Stanford didn't exist back then. If I were to run a 10,000 it would have been at Penn Relays. In college I thought that the 10k would be my event because I was way to slow for the mile, but my immediate success in the steeplechase caused me to focus at 1500/steeplechase. Later my heel problem put an end to that. We called it a "bone bruise" back then. In retrospect it was probably the first signs of plantar fasciitis. So I was forced to switch to the roads. I did OK, multiple ARs.

Rono ran 8:05 in 1978, so Malley's (Malmo's) 8:21 must have been up there in world ranking, I'm guessing top 10 -15? Rono was out there in the stratosphere in 1978....even the 8:05 in Seattle was hardly the best venue. Rono - big outlier.

T&FN Reboot — Henry Rono’s Incredible ’78 Season - Track & Field News

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T&FN Reboot — Henry Rono’s Incredible ’78 Season - Track & Field News

Sieg Lindstrom

FEBRUARY HAS DELIVERED tragedy and emotional trial for the sport and distance power nation Kenya. A second painful blow landed... Read More

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Awesome times, and these monsters, Bjorklund, Nenow, etc were making peanuts....just a few hundred bucks...of course, life was much cheaper then, and you could buy a house for $20,000 -$50,000, or less. Good times, good neighbors...sense of community...doors unlocked....finished now... I digress ..