Bell's 3.52 is onlly worth 3.55 without shoes,and Kipyegon is probably as fast as Kazankina.
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Given the super shoes and improvements to training and diet and advancements in science/ better drugs its amazing that the times at 800/1500m are not 1.50/3.45. That they are not may indicate that doping is not as universal as people think.
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THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
WhatAreTheirCocktails wrote:
I can’t believe people are trying to rationalize a 20-second drop (over a year) in the 1500m with age group records, duathlon training, etc.
She beat Welteji, she beat Muir. Welteji ran a PB and Muir had PBd and set a new national NR earlier this year.
Forget GB’s name, history, background, nationality.
Do any of you defending her genuinely believe that a 4:12 runner from 2023 could hang on to a suicidal pace while her more accomplished countrywoman, Muir, had to drop off the pack and slowly work her way back in—then still have the energy to sprint down the World Road Champion and last year’s World Silver medalist in the closing stages? Do you think that’s clean?
If she was from Kenya, she wouldn’t even be at the Games because she would have been busted long ago. So yeah, as the title suggests, it’s either she’s the most obvious doper of all time OR she’s the most talented 1500m runner to ever exist and she’s gonna run 3:45 by next year… you can choose what to believe.
Optically, it looks off too. Kipyegon, Hull and Welteji all very graceful strides. Bell leaning backwards, doesn’t look particularly fast or smooth yet overhauling the latter two.
You didn't in all seriousness throw in j hull's name?
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Just a thought but it's possible that Bell may not have been in the testing pool for long enough to have had enough tests to have a personal baseline for an ABP (irregularities therein) to be of immediate use. This isn't a comment on whether she may be doping and of course doesn't rule out validity of any current tests.
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UKADopingAgency wrote:
You didn't in all seriousness throw in j hull's name?
I’m suspicious of her vast improvement but her stride is a powerful, efficient one. Not awkwardly leaning back and “deceptive” like Bell’s.
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More Common Sense wrote:
Rethink intimating that Bell isn't whistle clean, because it also potentially suggests that her training group at the M11 Track Club might well be guilty by association.
That training group includes Keely Hodgkinson, who has improved to 1:54.
It includes Sarah Healy, who has improved to 3:57.
It also includes Lewis Davey, who got a bronze on the 4x400m.For comparison, Kelly Holmes was 34 when she won the 8/15.
And you try to convince me that UKAD (United Kingdom Assistance for Doping) is not complicit in not only aiding in doping but also covering up?
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masaiboy wrote:
Given the super shoes and improvements to training and diet and advancements in science/ better drugs its amazing that the times at 800/1500m are not 1.50/3.45. That they are not may indicate that doping is not as universal as people think.
Disagreed. Compare that for example to the 2012 1500 final, where basically the whole top got banned sooner or later.
That the times are now still comparable to those of the 80s and 90s only shows how hard core to the gills they doped last century. Now we still have plenty of dopers but they have to restrain themselves a bit.
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THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
UKADopingAgency wrote:
You didn't in all seriousness throw in j hull's name?
I’m suspicious of her vast improvement but her stride is a powerful, efficient one. Not awkwardly leaning back and “deceptive” like Bell’s.
Why suspicious? Are you really that clueless about how Bioenergetics works on running?
You are aren't you? So why don't you educate yourself. Because if you really must be opinionated, it will help you greatly if you are also knowledgeable.
But then again, I don't believe you really care, because I told you this 2 years ago.
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The main thing to understand is that the biggest dopers in history is the U S of A. These two faced types will bomb your country and say their saving it. They will call cheats cheats while cheating better. And they call it freedom.
PhghELPS the all time great.
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Newname wrote:
I'm very upset that she took the British national record from the deserving Laura Muir
i remember when ben johnson took the gold medal from the deserving carl lewis
it was quite a story
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THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
I’m suspicious of her vast improvement but her stride is a powerful, efficient one. Not awkwardly leaning back and “deceptive” like Bell’s.
Bell has Kipyegon’s efficient arm-carriage style, with a smooth symmetrical stride. Maybe her sway-back (putting the head back over the hips) compensates for being hunched over a Swift bike several hours per week:
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drahk wrote:
Bell's 3.52 is onlly worth 3.55 without shoes,and Kipyegon is probably as fast as Kazankina.
No, they're not. None of the data on shoes can be separated from doping which has also continued to develop more than shoes.
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masaiboy wrote:
Given the super shoes and improvements to training and diet and advancements in science/ better drugs its amazing that the times at 800/1500m are not 1.50/3.45. That they are not may indicate that doping is not as universal as people think.
All the so-called "improvements" in training, nutrition, shoes etc beg the issue of whether they are in fact based on drugs. They will be since drugs are throughout the sport.
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know thy history wrote:
masaiboy wrote:
Given the super shoes and improvements to training and diet and advancements in science/ better drugs its amazing that the times at 800/1500m are not 1.50/3.45. That they are not may indicate that doping is not as universal as people think.
Disagreed. Compare that for example to the 2012 1500 final, where basically the whole top got banned sooner or later.
That the times are now still comparable to those of the 80s and 90s only shows how hard core to the gills they doped last century. Now we still have plenty of dopers but they have to restrain themselves a bit.
Times aren't comparable to the '80's and '90's. They are exceeding them. Records are regularly being set in women's distance events. Championship events aren't being run like time-trials but the finishes are often incredible and especially by runners who are participating in several events. Added to that are runners like Bell and Hull carving huge amounts off their pr's. Doping is the biggest winner in the sport today.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.43 -
The sheer amount of mental gymnastics from you and the other fanboys on this thread to try and justify her progression is just plain embarrassing. You'd almost make Shelby Houlihan jealous that her defenders don't bend over this hard
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Guys she is legit. Stop hating and don't be sexist
If she is doping (she's not) then it will all come out (but she's not so it won't). Let the experts handle it and let's all enjoy watching this unique talent!
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Oh Please wrote:
connect the pieces wrote:
Why does no one bring up Bell's 800m? she ran 1.56, times two equals 3.52, and she is endurance trained (duathlon background - a sport I, and presumably most of you as well, know nothing about). Muir has run 1.57 x 2 = 3.54. GDS ran 1.58.7 (whether she was with Andy Young - so Reekie and Muir, or Bowerman) to run 3.56. Frankly, I think Reekie is in the wrong event (understandable when she trained with Muir, much as Bell is with Hodgkinson) as she could get down to 3.50ish with that speed (1.55), and has a poor 400m - unlike Hodgkinson who has clearly been working on it, with NO 1500's to her name since she was a kid. Hull's relatively poor 800m (much like ESP) might be suspicious, but both can run good 3000's - ESP beating Tsegay indoors - Hull now the WR for 2k. Of course Bell ran 2.03 as a teenager and now has the best in the world to train with for that development. I used to think that of El G, when he only ran 1500's (no real 800m to back it up) until he ran the 3000 (7.23) and 2k (4.45) then later 5000's.
I think the Bell/Hodgkinson duo, much like Reekie and Muir, is little different than Hocker and Teare (although it seems like Teare is getting the short end of the stick), or Kessler and Hoppel doing some training together (both have benefited as we saw last week). This goes back to Farah and Rupp as well. I thought the mantra on this board was that the best should train together - some even thinking that ALL the best should do so (which is not practical emotionally - direct competitors would make it difficult, see the ON group under Ritz).
Several folks just ran 1:41 in the Olympic 800 final. Multiplied by 2 that's 3:22. Do we expect any of those folks to drop a 3:22 1500? How about 3:26? 3:30? What is the number that isn't suspicious?
Running a 1500 for an 800 trained athlete - no they do not double it.
But for a 1500-specific athlete, r a 1500-5km trained athlete, they should be able to double their 800 time (or better).
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Armstronglivs wrote:
wayo wrote:
i remember when ben johnson took the gold medal from the deserving carl lewis
it was quite a story
Lewis wasn't on steroids and was cleared by an official investigation.
He was on HGH instead
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Y\'all Need to Read More wrote:
A decade of duathlon training and racing. Getting in 15-20 hours of aerobic work each week on the bike in addition to doing some quality running. She was the world age-group champion in 2023 and considered a UK running prodigy in her teens. Perhaps she is an outlier that thrives on cross training and has a really big engine as a result? If reports and articles are accurate, then 30 miles a week of running plus the riding above is far more overall training volume than most other middle-distance women are doing. It's not like she sat around getting heavy for ten years, joined a Couch-to-5K program at New Year's, and then a miracle happened.
I don't understand how "she trained more" can be the reason someone skyrockets through hundreds of elite athletes. It's the Gear that helps her train more, morans.
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