The focus of this thread is on testosterone supplementation and whether it's legal for Hiltz. I don't know what the rules are for trans so I don't have an opinion on that.
However, I'm pretty knowledgeable about supplements. There are supplements that suppress estrogens.
If I recall correctly, reducing estrogens increases the amount of available testosterone. Thus, these supplements would be a logical, legal, inexpensive step. My nutritionist could probably list 3-4 supplements to do this.
If Hiltz is working with a doctor who is knowledgeable in supplements, Hiltz is probably taking one or more of these supplements, which are legal and don't require a prescription.
I'm going off memory here so if you want to get more accurate information, you should research it yourself.
And as I stated: Testosterone supplementation is not legal for anyone competing in the women's category under any circumstances and is only allowed under limited circumstances for those competing in the men's category. Even a man with hypogonadism because of chronic illness (functional hypogonadism) doesn't qualify for a TUE for testosterone.
Yes, they might be able to take supplements that screw around with the various enzymes involved in hormone metabolism but those supplements would also have to not be on the banned list. If they can find legal supplements that do this then good luck to them.
Prescription drugs that are used to lower estrogen levels are also banned.
There's no way Hiltz has started a medal transition involving taking drugs that alter their hormonal makeup while still being allowed to compete in the women's category.
This is Hilarious. Hiltz haters are so despondent that Nikki just crushed the Olympic trials that they have to conjure up a fake claim that Hiltz has a TUE for testosterone.
The focus of this thread is on testosterone supplementation and whether it's legal for Hiltz. I don't know what the rules are for trans so I don't have an opinion on that.
However, I'm pretty knowledgeable about supplements. There are supplements that suppress estrogens.
If I recall correctly, reducing estrogens increases the amount of available testosterone. Thus, these supplements would be a logical, legal, inexpensive step. My nutritionist could probably list 3-4 supplements to do this.
If Hiltz is working with a doctor who is knowledgeable in supplements, Hiltz is probably taking one or more of these supplements, which are legal and don't require a prescription.
I'm going off memory here so if you want to get more accurate information, you should research it yourself.
And as I stated: Testosterone supplementation is not legal for anyone competing in the women's category under any circumstances and is only allowed under limited circumstances for those competing in the men's category. Even a man with hypogonadism because of chronic illness (functional hypogonadism) doesn't qualify for a TUE for testosterone.
Yes, they might be able to take supplements that screw around with the various enzymes involved in hormone metabolism but those supplements would also have to not be on the banned list. If they can find legal supplements that do this then good luck to them.
Prescription drugs that are used to lower estrogen levels are also banned.
There's no way Hiltz has started a medal transition involving taking drugs that alter their hormonal makeup while still being allowed to compete in the women's category.
This is Hilarious. Hiltz haters are so despondent that Nikki just crushed the Olympic trials that they have to conjure up a fake claim that Hiltz has a TUE for testosterone.
I'm not a hater. I just see someone who was on the verge of crashing out of being a professional runner in 2021 and 2022 and then doesn't just have a resurgence, but becomes a literal world class level runner (3:55.xx is world class) at 29 years old. She is literally now #22 on the all-time list now. #22 ALL TIME!!! From Nikki freaking Hiltz. Yea, that's not suspicious at all. Never broke 4:00 until she was 28 years old and is now #22 all time.
This is Hilarious. Hiltz haters are so despondent that Nikki just crushed the Olympic trials that they have to conjure up a fake claim that Hiltz has a TUE for testosterone.
This is Hilarious. Hiltz haters are so despondent that Nikki just crushed the Olympic trials that they have to conjure up a fake claim that Hiltz has a TUE for testosterone.
I'm not a hater.
“Hiltz is a jerk, and I know that everyone thinks this, but just can't say it because it might be offensive. Ever since Hiltz dumped Therese Haiss (who everyone loves), no one has liked Hiltz.” - Bob Sack
This is Hilarious. Hiltz haters are so despondent that Nikki just crushed the Olympic trials that they have to conjure up a fake claim that Hiltz has a TUE for testosterone.
I'm not a hater. I just see someone who was on the verge of crashing out of being a professional runner in 2021 and 2022 and then doesn't just have a resurgence, but becomes a literal world class level runner (3:55.xx is world class) at 29 years old. She is literally now #22 on the all-time list now. #22 ALL TIME!!! From Nikki freaking Hiltz. Yea, that's not suspicious at all. Never broke 4:00 until she was 28 years old and is now #22 all time.
And why do you think you can get a TUE for test? You really think every Russian, Kenyan, and so on runner wouldn’t be nonbinary if that was true.
is her running fast ? Of course. But it is in the same way that ESP running fast is. Both were 24 year olds with 4:02 type 1500m times. Even with shoes dropping 7s isn’t expected. But it happens. You either accept people train and get better or you can just assume everyone is a doper…
do you think Nick Willis was a doper? Dude struggled in the mid 20s running 3:35s and then as like a 29 year returns to form and drops some 3:29s with no shoe improvement. Dude clearly started doping right? The no wanking stuff was just his cover….maybe. But if I had to bet it was more a bunch of minor injuries and poor build ups. Things then line up and he had 4 good years
From ESPN The Magazine's Being Out Issue: Chris Mosier is the first known out transgender athlete to make a U.S. national team. But will he be allowed to compete for his country?
“Hiltz is a jerk, and I know that everyone thinks this, but just can't say it because it might be offensive. Ever since Hiltz dumped Therese Haiss (who everyone loves), no one has liked Hiltz.” - Bob Sack
I'm not a hater. I just see someone who was on the verge of crashing out of being a professional runner in 2021 and 2022 and then doesn't just have a resurgence, but becomes a literal world class level runner (3:55.xx is world class) at 29 years old. She is literally now #22 on the all-time list now. #22 ALL TIME!!! From Nikki freaking Hiltz. Yea, that's not suspicious at all. Never broke 4:00 until she was 28 years old and is now #22 all time.
And why do you think you can get a TUE for test? You really think every Russian, Kenyan, and so on runner wouldn’t be nonbinary if that was true.
is her running fast ? Of course. But it is in the same way that ESP running fast is. Both were 24 year olds with 4:02 type 1500m times. Even with shoes dropping 7s isn’t expected. But it happens. You either accept people train and get better or you can just assume everyone is a doper…
do you think Nick Willis was a doper? Dude struggled in the mid 20s running 3:35s and then as like a 29 year returns to form and drops some 3:29s with no shoe improvement. Dude clearly started doping right? The no wanking stuff was just his cover….maybe. But if I had to bet it was more a bunch of minor injuries and poor build ups. Things then line up and he had 4 good years
BS. Nick Willis ran 3:32 at age 21 in 2004. At 23 he was the Commonwealth champion, that included competition against Kenyans. At 25 he was the Olympic silver medallist in Beijing (originally third, behind two runners later busted for doping.) So he was at least the second best 1500 runner in the world that year. Hiltz was nothing like him at that age.
She has said she wants to take testosterone to 'affirm her gender' but that she "can't while competing". Hopefully she is sticking to the rules. Stating such a thing does raise some eyebrows though.
And why do you think you can get a TUE for test? You really think every Russian, Kenyan, and so on runner wouldn’t be nonbinary if that was true.
is her running fast ? Of course. But it is in the same way that ESP running fast is. Both were 24 year olds with 4:02 type 1500m times. Even with shoes dropping 7s isn’t expected. But it happens. You either accept people train and get better or you can just assume everyone is a doper…
do you think Nick Willis was a doper? Dude struggled in the mid 20s running 3:35s and then as like a 29 year returns to form and drops some 3:29s with no shoe improvement. Dude clearly started doping right? The no wanking stuff was just his cover….maybe. But if I had to bet it was more a bunch of minor injuries and poor build ups. Things then line up and he had 4 good years
BS. Nick Willis ran 3:32 at age 21 in 2004. At 23 he was the Commonwealth champion, that included competition against Kenyans. At 25 he was the Olympic silver medallist in Beijing (originally third, behind two runners later busted for doping.) So he was at least the second best 1500 runner in the world that year. Hiltz was nothing like him at that age.
And that's exactly my point. Nikki has never flashed this kind of world class ability before, and now is doing so at 29? Nikki has the #4 time in the world this year. It would be one thing if there was gradual improvement year-over-year to get to this point, but Nikki was literally nearly out of the sport in 2022 and it wasn't like they were injured.
I don’t know why their performance is so surprising to y’all. They literally placed 2nd at NCAAs twice (after Jess Hull no less). Jess Hull is now a world class athlete, seems perfectly reasonable that Nikki would be too. Nikki even qualified for world’s right out of college and got gold at Pan Ams! Don’t forget that they started with a pretty mid team (the now defunct Golden Coast AC), then switched to being coached by their friend Mac Fleet 2020-2021. I have to imagine moving to Flagstaff, training with an elite team and coach (Mike Smith), AND being more comfortable with their personal life has all culminated into athletic success here. Most athletes don’t have a linear path to success, and Nikki’s trajectory is completely reasonable.
BS. Nick Willis ran 3:32 at age 21 in 2004. At 23 he was the Commonwealth champion, that included competition against Kenyans. At 25 he was the Olympic silver medallist in Beijing (originally third, behind two runners later busted for doping.) So he was at least the second best 1500 runner in the world that year. Hiltz was nothing like him at that age.
And that's exactly my point. Nikki has never flashed this kind of world class ability before, and now is doing so at 29? Nikki has the #4 time in the world this year. It would be one thing if there was gradual improvement year-over-year to get to this point, but Nikki was literally nearly out of the sport in 2022 and it wasn't like they were injured.
here are two 29 year old athletes' progressions. one is considered a hard-working farm girl that can do no wrong, the other is non-binary thus must be cheating: Year - FarmGirl's Time - Non-Binary Time 2015 - 4:18 - 4:16 2016 - 4:33 - 4:20 2017 - 4:12 - 4:10 2018 - 4:07 - 4:09 2019 - 4:02 - 4:01 2020 - 4:00 - 4:07 2021 - 3:58 - 4:02 2022 - 3:59 - 4:04 2023 - NT - 3:59 2024 - 3:55 - 3:55
I would have to say Elle and Nikki have had a very parallel progression/development.
And that's exactly my point. Nikki has never flashed this kind of world class ability before, and now is doing so at 29? Nikki has the #4 time in the world this year. It would be one thing if there was gradual improvement year-over-year to get to this point, but Nikki was literally nearly out of the sport in 2022 and it wasn't like they were injured.
here are two 29 year old athletes' progressions. one is considered a hard-working farm girl that can do no wrong, the other is non-binary thus must be cheating: Year - FarmGirl's Time - Non-Binary Time 2015 - 4:18 - 4:16 2016 - 4:33 - 4:20 2017 - 4:12 - 4:10 2018 - 4:07 - 4:09 2019 - 4:02 - 4:01 2020 - 4:00 - 4:07 2021 - 3:58 - 4:02 2022 - 3:59 - 4:04 2023 - NT - 3:59 2024 - 3:55 - 3:55
I would have to say Elle and Nikki have had a very parallel progression/development.
If you can't see how these two progressions are different, then I can't help you. Yes, they basically started at the same point leaving college and are now at the same point at 29.
Here's the difference:
One athlete has run 14/27 of her 1,500s faster than 4:05 and has run one 1,500 slower than 4:10 since 2019 (2021 Olympic Trials 1st round heat) and is a model of consistency and incremental improvement.
The other athlete ran only 5/30 1,500s faster than 4:05 from 2019-2022 with 9 1,500s slower than 4:10 but suddenly has run 11/18 1,500s faster than 4:05 in 2023-2024 with only 3 1,500s slower than 4:10.
I'm pretty knowledgeable about supplements. There are supplements that suppress estrogens.
If I recall correctly, reducing estrogens increases the amount of available testosterone. Thus, these supplements would be a logical, legal, inexpensive step. My nutritionist could probably list 3-4 supplements to do this.
If Hiltz is working with a doctor who is knowledgeable in supplements, Hiltz is probably taking one or more of these supplements, which are legal and don't require a prescription.
I'm going off memory here so if you want to get more accurate information, you should research it yourself.
What you say in the part I've bolded might be true for male people (I have no idea). But if it is indeed true for males, that doesn’t mean it's also true for female people.
In fact, I am pretty certain that what you've said there - "reducing estrogens increases the amount of available testosterone" - is definitely not true for those of us who are female.
In infancy, puberty of adolescence and adulthood, females produce only a fraction of the overall testosterone made by males of the same age and/or developmental stage. And the amount of available (or free) testosterone in our systems is infinitesimally small compared to males. A woman like Nikki Hiltz or me has nowhere near the amount of available natural T in our bodies that a bloke would have.
Also, in women and post-menarche girls, the amounts of estrogen and testosterone we make normally rise and fall in synch with one another. This is true as our sex hormone levels surge and fall dramatically during specific reproductive periods we go through - the ovulation-menstruation cycle; pregnancy; labor and childbirth; after giving birth, having a miscarriage or abortion; weaning; perimenopause and menopause - and as our overall output and peak levels of gonadal sex hormones declines significantly from our 20s into and past middle age.
All of this flies in the face of what you seem to be suggesting, namely that there’s an inverse relationship between natural estrogen levels and the amount of available testosterone in females.
My apologies if I’ve misconstrued what you were trying to say.
One last thing: if the unnamed supplements you are speaking of really could decrease natural estrogen levels in women and girls - and those unnamed supplements also would make it possible for us to utilize and benefit from the "available testostrone" you seem to think we've got in our systems and that we're letting go to waste by leaving it all untapped - then those supplements would already be in wide use by women and girls. And they'd be widely used by women and girls generally, not just those who'd like to tap into an unused store of natural T to build some muscle, quicken our metabolism, and lose some weight in order to boost our sports perfromance.
After all, untold legions of women and girls would love to be able counteract the downsides of high natural estrogen that many of us experience and which negatively impacts our lives in all sorts of ways. Even more of us would love to be able to even out the dramatic - and really bothersome, sometimes life-disrupting and disabling - ups and downs in our estrogen levels that we have to contend with during our monthly cycles and as we go through the postpartum period, perimenopause and menopause.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
And as I stated: Testosterone supplementation is not legal for anyone competing in the women's category under any circumstances and is only allowed under limited circumstances for those competing in the men's category. Even a man with hypogonadism because of chronic illness (functional hypogonadism) doesn't qualify for a TUE for testosterone.
Yes, they might be able to take supplements that screw around with the various enzymes involved in hormone metabolism but those supplements would also have to not be on the banned list. If they can find legal supplements that do this then good luck to them.
Prescription drugs that are used to lower estrogen levels are also banned.
There's no way Hiltz has started a medal transition involving taking drugs that alter their hormonal makeup while still being allowed to compete in the women's category.
Are you 100% sure about the part of your post I bolded?
Medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA) - and depot medroxyprogesterone acetate (DMPA), the injection-form known widely by the brand name Depo Provera - are prescription drugs widely used in female patients to shut off ovarian function and lower natural estrogen levels. But I don't see them on the WADA list of banned substances.
In 2021, MPA ranked 238th amongst the most frequently prescribed medications in the United States, with nearly 1.7 million prescriptions.
Medroxyprogesterone drug usage statistics for the United States (2013 - 2021). Statistics include drug synonyms and therapeutic classes, including: Medroxyprogesterone Acetate, Medroxyprogesterone, Amen, Curretab, Cycrin, Dep...
DMPA is used as a form of birth control by millions of women around the world, particularly women who are poor and with lower levels of educaiton.
I admit that looking at the WADA list makes me bleary-eyed, so it may be that I've missed MPA and DMPA even when they've been smack in front of my face.
If you or anyone else has seen MPA and/or DMPA on the WADA list, please point me to exactly where.
If that were the case, female athletes would have to forego nearly all forms of hormonal birth control.
If all synthetic hormones were banned, then WA wouldn't allow much less recommend that XY DSD athletes who want to compete in the women's category take Big Pharma estrogen pills to reduce their testosterone to below a certain limit.
