LRC note. We changed the title of the thread to make it more clear what exactly happened. The thread was initially entiteld, "Transgender sprinter wins Oregon girls' state championship 200". Moving forward, you must be a registered user to post.
Make sure the rule books specify that there's two categories, male and female. Each category is defined by biological sex. You can present yourself as whatever gender you wish at competition, but all athletes must compete in the category of their biological sex.
Booing a teenager because you don’t agree with the state’s policies is pretty low, and I’m someone who agrees that trans athletes who are not on hormone blockers should compete as their biological sex.
I don't want to hear about how it was bad to boo. If was at the meet with my daughter, I'd be upset if my daughter didn't boo. This is a clear case of the trans athlete marginalizing female bodied people. The sympathy belongs with them not the trans athlete who had never run track before in their life until 3 months ago and now is the greatest 'girls' HS track athlete in Portland history.
Everyone knows girls and women’s sports was created as a sex classification not gender. As as result, it's simply wrong to have male bodied people competing in girls and women’s class-based sport, just as it's wrong to have a 16-year-old competing in a younger age group. It’s simply a class distinction designed to promote competition within classes of people and a trans woman isn't part of that class. And it’s particularly obnoxious when people from a different more competitive class beat out those they’re pretending to be a part of and ally for because in reality it's misogynistic.
Make sure the rule books specify that there's two categories, male and female. Each category is defined by biological sex. You can present yourself as whatever gender you wish at competition, but all athletes must compete in the category of their biological sex.
And if you believe that, then you are really arguing for one division in sports, just as there is only one public school system for all races post desegregation. Ending segregation is ending segregation.
This is the only logical end point of your argument anyways. I mean what rationale besides biology would support there being two divisions? Because you think that athletes in the girls division don’t train as hard? Because they like to wear dresses and are not as tough? Because they don’t care about winning as much as boys do? Because they should go back to being cheerleaders?
Are girls on average much slower, weaker, and smaller than boys because they identify as girls, or because they are biologically female?
Exactly what would be the reason for having two divisions in sports if not biology?
There are two divisions because there used to be one, but coaches weren't selecting girls to be on teams. These coaches thought they didn't belong in sports. A portion of Title IX made it so that equal opportunities were given for boys and girls to participate in sports. Women's sports were NOT created because of "biology" or "fairness" in the way that you talk about it. It's about participation. That's it.
We have two categories. That means more people get to do sports. I support that. Trans girls are girls. Trans boys are boys. So they should compete as such.
Usain Bolt would also beat you, rojo, in every 100m race you ever run against him. How is that fair? Why do you prioritize his well-being over your right to win races? For a numbers perspective, it makes no sense at all.
This is the exact circular argument that has created this mess. And it's people like you that trundle it out thinking that it's some bulletproof "higher level of understanding" logic and just look foolish which is what you are.
Is it fair that Usain Bolt was 6'4 and could turn over his legs as fast as Tyson Gay at 5'10? Well no - but absolute equality and parity in sports not only is impossible and impractical but would also essentially nullify the concept of competitive sport.
So yeah, if we wanted that we could test every single athlete in every sport on earth for their testosterone levels (just as one example of potentially hundreds of measures) and put them into a competing category with a very narrow variance and high five each other at how we created a close to perfect system but clearly that is just not feasible and quite frankly it would be idiotic given the resources to do this when there are far more pressing issues in life to deal with.
What we have is a system that is about as practical as possible. Does exclude some people? Yes, (Rojo, you, myself are never lining up in the Olympic 100m final) but life isn't perfectly fair, shouldn't be and doesn't need to be. And no, we didn't have a public referendum around sports categories back in the 1800's when competitive sport became a thing to decide what the categories should be but tough luck - for over a century "whoever" decided on this got it pretty close to right as XX and XY chromosome humans have been able to compete with relative equality and safety in sports. Ever ask yourself why all these cases we have seen involve the infiltration of girls/womens sport and not the other way around? Every wondered why we haven't seen Jenny Smith identifying as Johnny Smith and winning the high school boys 100m title?
Here is the biggest point - who are you and these people that think you can just redefine the norms and convention of society and just do how you feel? What is your level of arrogance and entitlement you think you have? This is the classic b@stardization of the American "ideals" of "freedom" and "nobody can tell me what to do or be" - that's not reality kemosabe. I might feel like I want to punch you in the face because I think you are stupid - but I can't because that isn't a convention that is accepted in society. Newsflash, we need some level of order in society on multiple levels and anyone that thinks we don't and that we would still function as a species is about as delusional as the twits that think abolishing law enforcement is a good idea.
The categories for competitive sport are the categories. What you compete in determined by your sex at birth. Period. If you are not proven to be definitively one or the other (case Semenya) there should be a third category for you (which I think many many people believe is how we need to evolve competitive sport) or you need to fall into a plausible bandwidth of hormonal attributes (which I personally am super uneasy about but right now is the only way to make this work).
Exactly what would be the reason for having two divisions in sports if not biology?
There are two divisions because there used to be one, but coaches weren't selecting girls to be on teams. These coaches thought they didn't belong in sports. A portion of Title IX made it so that equal opportunities were given for boys and girls to participate in sports. Women's sports were NOT created because of "biology" or "fairness" in the way that you talk about it. It's about participation. That's it.
We have two categories. That means more people get to do sports. I support that. Trans girls are girls. Trans boys are boys. So they should compete as such.
A greater hogwash of history I have never read.
1) That is not why women's sports exist.
2) Sports for girls and women began long before Title IX.
3) There is ZERO chance that the authors of Title IX, or those who voted for it, or Richard Nixon believed that they were creating a law that would allow a boy to declare himself as a girl and to then participate in sports as such. There is NO CHANCE IN THE WORLD that they had that intent. In fact, they would have wanted the exact opposite outcome.
Usain Bolt would also beat you, rojo, in every 100m race you ever run against him. How is that fair? Why do you prioritize his well-being over your right to win races? For a numbers perspective, it makes no sense at all.
This is the exact circular argument that has created this mess. And it's people like you that trundle it out thinking that it's some bulletproof "higher level of understanding" logic and just look foolish which is what you are.
Is it fair that Usain Bolt was 6'4 and could turn over his legs as fast as Tyson Gay at 5'10? Well no - but absolute equality and parity in sports not only is impossible and impractical but would also essentially nullify the concept of competitive sport.
So yeah, if we wanted that we could test every single athlete in every sport on earth for their testosterone levels (just as one example of potentially hundreds of measures) and put them into a competing category with a very narrow variance and high five each other at how we created a close to perfect system but clearly that is just not feasible and quite frankly it would be idiotic given the resources to do this when there are far more pressing issues in life to deal with.
What we have is a system that is about as practical as possible. Does exclude some people? Yes, (Rojo, you, myself are never lining up in the Olympic 100m final) but life isn't perfectly fair, shouldn't be and doesn't need to be. And no, we didn't have a public referendum around sports categories back in the 1800's when competitive sport became a thing to decide what the categories should be but tough luck - for over a century "whoever" decided on this got it pretty close to right as XX and XY chromosome humans have been able to compete with relative equality and safety in sports. Ever ask yourself why all these cases we have seen involve the infiltration of girls/womens sport and not the other way around? Every wondered why we haven't seen Jenny Smith identifying as Johnny Smith and winning the high school boys 100m title?
Here is the biggest point - who are you and these people that think you can just redefine the norms and convention of society and just do how you feel? What is your level of arrogance and entitlement you think you have? This is the classic b@stardization of the American "ideals" of "freedom" and "nobody can tell me what to do or be" - that's not reality kemosabe. I might feel like I want to punch you in the face because I think you are stupid - but I can't because that isn't a convention that is accepted in society. Newsflash, we need some level of order in society on multiple levels and anyone that thinks we don't and that we would still function as a species is about as delusional as the twits that think abolishing law enforcement is a good idea.
The categories for competitive sport are the categories. What you compete in determined by your sex at birth. Period. If you are not proven to be definitively one or the other (case Semenya) there should be a third category for you (which I think many many people believe is how we need to evolve competitive sport) or you need to fall into a plausible bandwidth of hormonal attributes (which I personally am super uneasy about but right now is the only way to make this work).
A person identifying as male or female is not like punching you in the face. Your life is not changed by it.
I'm not saying we need to redefine norms. I think girls should run with girls. Nothing changes. YOU are the one who thinks we should have boys run against girls and vice versa.
When you say, "We separate sports by biology!" I know that you have no real understanding of sports.
A person identifying as male or female is not like punching you in the face. Your life is not changed by it.
I'm not saying we need to redefine norms. I think girls should run with girls. Nothing changes. YOU are the one who thinks we should have boys run against girls and vice versa.
When you say, "We separate sports by biology!" I know that you have no real understanding of sports.
Huh? Are you on drugs man?
So why don't you enlighten us - if we aren't separating by biology what are we separating it by? Psychology?
I can't wait to hear this one - I know this thread can't either. Please, the floor is yours.
A person identifying as male or female is not like punching you in the face. Your life is not changed by it.
No my life isn't - I'm am biologically a male. But young woman who for example, might miss out on a state final, or a state medal, or just basic opportunity - their lives are changed by it. Could you be any more self-serving and unaware?
Most trans athletes, like all athletes, are average. They are not on our radar. If that was the case 100% of the time, this would not even be an issue. Hopefully nobody has a problem with that. Let kids be kids... unless they are undermining the entire premise of girls sport (that girls need their own division because they can't compete against boys in sports).
BTW, I was recently at a meet where a female (trans-boy) ran in the boys race and was dead last. Nobody was "outraged" because it didn't hurt anyone and the kid was happy. Not much downside there, is there?
But this is getting more and more common even if we don't see all these kids winning the state meet.
Yes. This athlete is just the tip of an iceberg and the iceberg is the mediocre athletes who are not on the radar. Dems elected officials do not want a total ban because they think those mediocre athletes should be allowed to compete. But Rs are not willing to settle for anything short of a total ban. And they also want to ban trans boys in boys sports. Maybe no parent is outraged in Oregon. But Mack Beggs was booed for competing in boys wrestling.
Any humans who would boo a child participating in a child's activity where they aren't directly harming someone else is absolutely influenced by JK Rowling's rhetoric. Rojo is JK Rowling's understudy and vigilante ringleader on this message board.
Any humans who would boo a child participating in a child's activity where they aren't directly harming someone else is absolutely influenced by JK Rowling's rhetoric. Rojo is JK Rowling's understudy and vigilante ringleader on this message board.
Most trans athletes, like all athletes, are average. They are not on our radar. If that was the case 100% of the time, this would not even be an issue. Hopefully nobody has a problem with that. Let kids be kids... unless they are undermining the entire premise of girls sport (that girls need their own division because they can't compete against boys in sports).
BTW, I was recently at a meet where a female (trans-boy) ran in the boys race and was dead last. Nobody was "outraged" because it didn't hurt anyone and the kid was happy. Not much downside there, is there?
But this is getting more and more common even if we don't see all these kids winning the state meet.
Yes. This athlete is just the tip of an iceberg and the iceberg is the mediocre athletes who are not on the radar. Dems elected officials do not want a total ban because they think those mediocre athletes should be allowed to compete. But Rs are not willing to settle for anything short of a total ban. And they also want to ban trans boys in boys sports. Maybe no parent is outraged in Oregon. But Mack Beggs was booed for competing in boys wrestling.
An average man has more upper-body strength than 99.9% of women. I oppose even "mediocre" men competing in women's sports where they will instantly dominate any strength-based competition.
What's your solution? Let biological males compete with the women, unless they get good, then switch back to the men's team? Good luck trying to enforce that.
An average man has more upper-body strength than 99.9% of women. I oppose even "mediocre" men competing in women's sports where they will instantly dominate any strength-based competition.
What's your solution? Let biological males compete with the women, unless they get good, then switch back to the men's team? Good luck trying to enforce that.
A transgender girl on puberty blocker and cross hormone does not have more upper-body strength than 99.9% of cis girls. How much advantage she has over cis girls is unknown and probably unknowable.
Set the eligibility standard based on HRT like World Athletics does, and let them compete until one of the two things happen.
1. A trans athlete sets a record that is out of reach for cis girls.
2. Trans athletes get overrepresented in girls sports by a significant margin.
I bet neither will happen. The number of trans girls who medically transition as a minor is extremely small, and most of them are not interested in sports.
