You are arguing every kind of nonsense because you don't have accurate and up to date information, and you are contradicting one of the experts who just gave us a progress report before World Cross Country.
Simply because Antartica didn't improve their marathon times in the EPO era?
Any Marathoner from Antarctica HAS improved his/her Marathon time during the EPO era by 1/2 hour.
I didn't argue any of that nonsense. I simply put it that because there is no data that shows the full extent of Kenyan doping then any assessment, however expert, ultimately is what is "believed" to be the case and not what is definitively proven. And the use of the word "believe" is not a synonym for a religious views or unfounded speculation. Expert assessments are also what experts believe, based on the evidence they have.
However the point, which you continually evade, is that expert assessment from either WADA or the AIU in no way diminishes the extent and thus the "seriousness" of the Kenyan doping problem. What it is showing is that doping occurs at every level in Kenya - which is what the busts are now indicating. It is their national disease.
You are arguing every kind of nonsense because you don't have accurate and up to date information, and you are contradicting one of the experts who just gave us a progress report before World Cross Country.
None of the latest information says Kenya doesn't have a serious doping problem. If it did it would be front page news. Instead we continue to see the unending parade of violations at every level in their sport.
You are arguing every kind of nonsense because you don't have accurate and up to date information, and you are contradicting one of the experts who just gave us a progress report before World Cross Country.
None of the latest information says Kenya doesn't have a serious doping problem. If it did it would be front page news. Instead we continue to see the unending parade of violations at every level in their sport.
Send Ziggy Marley in to perform a concert, to help sort out the situation man.
None of the latest information says Kenya doesn't have a serious doping problem. If it did it would be front page news. Instead we continue to see the unending parade of violations at every level in their sport.
Send Ziggy Marley in to perform a concert, to help sort out the situation man.
You are arguing every kind of nonsense because you don't have accurate and up to date information, and you are contradicting one of the experts who just gave us a progress report before World Cross Country.
Is this a bit like you contradicting WADA, AIU, the overwhelming scientific consensus, and athletes and coaches alike, that EPO doesn't work? Simply because GB, Russia, and Antartica didn't improve their marathon times in the EPO era?
It might be if I had ever contradicted "WADA, AIU, the overwhelming scientific consensus, and athletes and coaches alike, that EPO doesn't work".
I don't cherry-pick GB, Russia, and Antarctica, and the marathon. The incontrovertible fact is that the EPO-era was a period of insignificant progression for all non-Africans world-wide, for about three decades, for all events from the 800m to the marathon, with average top-quality gains of 0.3-0.7% compared to the '80s. Some like you, believe that non-Africans simply don't dope, (contradicting WADA, AIU, the overwhelming scientific consensus, and athletes and coaches alike). Others believed that non-Africans were already performing at their potential in the '80s, thanks to the synergy of steroids and blood transfusions.
You are arguing every kind of nonsense because you don't have accurate and up to date information, and you are contradicting one of the experts who just gave us a progress report before World Cross Country.
None of the latest information says Kenya doesn't have a serious doping problem. If it did it would be front page news. Instead we continue to see the unending parade of violations at every level in their sport.
We already knew from WADA about Kenya's serious doping problem, and some of the reasons for it, as far back 2014.
The contradiction is that you said it's not getting better, contradicting the optimism of the recent progress report.
Is this a bit like you contradicting WADA, AIU, the overwhelming scientific consensus, and athletes and coaches alike, that EPO doesn't work? Simply because GB, Russia, and Antartica didn't improve their marathon times in the EPO era?
It might be if I had ever contradicted "WADA, AIU, the overwhelming scientific consensus, and athletes and coaches alike, that EPO doesn't work".
I don't cherry-pick GB, Russia, and Antarctica, and the marathon. The incontrovertible fact is that the EPO-era was a period of insignificant progression for all non-Africans world-wide, for about three decades, for all events from the 800m to the marathon, with average top-quality gains of 0.3-0.7% compared to the '80s. Some like you, believe that non-Africans simply don't dope, (contradicting WADA, AIU, the overwhelming scientific consensus, and athletes and coaches alike). Others believed that non-Africans were already performing at their potential in the '80s, thanks to the synergy of steroids and blood transfusions.
Yep...transfusions, anabolic steroids, testosterone, amphetamines, etc. EPO is not going to be able to top that off much.
Yep...transfusions, anabolic steroids, testosterone, amphetamines, etc. EPO is not going to be able to top that off much.
So, it's hard to choose which mythology explains the performance best -- were the non-Africans already doped to the gills back in the '80s, and then they all stopped, en masse, and decided to start playing other sports because they were afraid of the Africans?
I guess the argument is that in the 1980s, clean East Africans were as fast as doped to the gills non-Africans, like Coe, Cram, Ovett, Moorcroft (except in World Cross country, where the East Africans were already much faster with a larger depth of top-talent), before the 1990s, when East Africans started pulling away from these doped to the gills non-Africans, and never looked back.
None of the latest information says Kenya doesn't have a serious doping problem. If it did it would be front page news. Instead we continue to see the unending parade of violations at every level in their sport.
We already knew from WADA about Kenya's serious doping problem, and some of the reasons for it, as far back 2014.
The contradiction is that you said it's not getting better, contradicting the optimism of the recent progress report.
The only "progress" is they continue to catch more of their dopers. But they will never catch all of them or anything like it. Their doping remains as extravagant - as "serious" - as it always has been. It isn't the exception in their sport - it is their sport.
We already knew from WADA about Kenya's serious doping problem, and some of the reasons for it, as far back 2014.
The contradiction is that you said it's not getting better, contradicting the optimism of the recent progress report.
The only "progress" is they continue to catch more of their dopers. But they will never catch all of them or anything like it. Their doping remains as extravagant - as "serious" - as it always has been. It isn't the exception in their sport - it is their sport.
so, many of the athletes from other countries are clean?
So, it's hard to choose which mythology explains the performance best -- were the non-Africans already doped to the gills back in the '80s, and then they all stopped, en masse, and decided to start playing other sports because they were afraid of the Africans?
I guess the argument is that in the 1980s, clean East Africans were as fast as doped to the gills non-Africans, like Coe, Cram, Ovett, Moorcroft (except in World Cross country, where the East Africans were already much faster with a larger depth of top-talent), before the 1990s, when East Africans started pulling away from these doped to the gills non-Africans, and never looked back.
"mythology".... We actually know that they "doped to gills back in the '80s", yes, but who said "they all stopped"? Barely improving is not equivalent to stopping doping. Doping may have slowed down after the Cold War ended, especially noticeable with the roided women (47.60, 2x 1:53... were never seen again.). As "Here's my take" wrote: "EPO is not going to be able to top that off much."
And which "clean East Africans were as fast as doped to the gills non-Africans, like Coe,..." in the 1980s? Keep dreaming. You simply can't keep any discussion honest.
The only "progress" is they continue to catch more of their dopers. But they will never catch all of them or anything like it. Their doping remains as extravagant - as "serious" - as it always has been. It isn't the exception in their sport - it is their sport.
so, many of the athletes from other countries are clean?
Even though doping is in all countries at the top it isn't necessarily in the same numbers. Russia and Kenya show that. Kenya is like the mafia in distance running; you aren't a distance runner unless you're a member - which is a doper.
so, many of the athletes from other countries are clean?
Even though doping is in all countries at the top it isn't necessarily in the same numbers. Russia and Kenya show that. Kenya is like the mafia in distance running; you aren't a distance runner unless you're a member - which is a doper.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Kenyans get caught because yes, they dope, and because their doping is unsophisticated.
If you don't know that doping is rife in most countries, and that in richer countries it's just too sophisticated, you surely have never involved in competitive running, as an athlete or as a coach.
Did you know that even in para sports there are countless athletes doping?
so, many of the athletes from other countries are clean?
Even though doping is in all countries at the top it isn't necessarily in the same numbers. Russia and Kenya show that. Kenya is like the mafia in distance running; you aren't a distance runner unless you're a member - which is a doper.
Even though doping is in all countries at the top it isn't necessarily in the same numbers. Russia and Kenya show that. Kenya is like the mafia in distance running; you aren't a distance runner unless you're a member - which is a doper.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Kenyans get caught because yes, they dope, and because their doping is unsophisticated.
If you don't know that doping is rife in most countries, and that in richer countries it's just too sophisticated, you surely have never involved in competitive running, as an athlete or as a coach.
Did you know that even in para sports there are countless athletes doping?
Of course there is doping everywhere - I have long said that (you can't read?) - but Kenya is clearly amongst the very worst in the sport.
But your point suggests Kenyans don't dope more than anyone else, they are just dumber - so they get caught. I don't see anyone trying to defend them on those grounds.
Even though doping is in all countries at the top it isn't necessarily in the same numbers. Russia and Kenya show that. Kenya is like the mafia in distance running; you aren't a distance runner unless you're a member - which is a doper.
So, many of the non Kenyans are clean?
That isn't what I was saying. They obviously don't dope as much as the Kenyans do. But this thread is about Kenyan doping. If you want to discuss the rest of the world, make your own thread.
That isn't what I was saying. They obviously don't dope as much as the Kenyans do. But this thread is about Kenyan doping. If you want to discuss the rest of the world, make your own thread.
So not everybody is doping. But you often have said anybody at the top is doping.
That isn't what I was saying. They obviously don't dope as much as the Kenyans do. But this thread is about Kenyan doping. If you want to discuss the rest of the world, make your own thread.
So not everybody is doping. But you often have said anybody at the top is doping.
The top of the sport isn't "everybody". Do we need to use another language you are more familiar with?
"mythology".... We actually know that they "doped to gills back in the '80s", yes, but who said "they all stopped"? Barely improving is not equivalent to stopping doping. Doping may have slowed down after the Cold War ended, especially noticeable with the roided women (47.60, 2x 1:53... were never seen again.). As "Here's my take" wrote: "EPO is not going to be able to top that off much."
And which "clean East Africans were as fast as doped to the gills non-Africans, like Coe,..." in the 1980s? Keep dreaming. You simply can't keep any discussion honest.
By all means -- just bring honest discussion, without all the myths.
It can be confusing, because people figuratively use expressions like "We actually know ...", attempting to palm off their own personal mythology as if it were established as a known fact. For example, I've only seen one person ever argue the existance of "Cold War doping" for distance runners, and he had a unique extreme tendency to extrapolate broad and sweeping conclusions from cherry-picking half the facts.
You could make a strong argument for the fast performances of the Russian and East German women for the shorter distances of 400m and 800m who strongly resembled men, but our "knowledge" stops far, far short of "knowing" whether the fastest athletes of the '80s like Cram, Maree, Coe, Bile, Rono, Moorcroft, Barrios, Mamede, Lopes, Abebe, Ondieki, Dinsamo, Salah, Jones, and Kodama, were doping at all. Similarly for the women of the '80s like Kristiansen, Budd, Wessel, McColgan, Benoit, Mota, Ondieki, and Waitz. You may find the rare exception who dabbled with blood transfusions while it was still legal, but nothing rising to the level of all the best distance athletes "doped to gills back in the '80s".
Who said they stopped doping in the EPO-era? Coevett repeatedly suggests that all non-Africans worldwide got scared en masse of East African dominance and went to other sports. All the different personal mythologies conflict with each other, when there is no will to propose a comprehensive explanation that fits all the established facts.
It's funny, if I had said "EPO is not going to be able to top that off much", I would be accused of arguing that "EPO doesn't work". And here it is being used as an argument against me, rather than confirming me.