WRONG. This used to happen ALL THE TIME in D1 before they got rid of last chance meets.
The meet director has 100% latitude to change the meet schedule during the meet as long as all teams are notified. This still happens all the time - for example reseeding the 200m after scratches and removing a few sections, thus making the 4x4 relays earlier. Another example is a meet being delayed to wait for better weather.
There are NO rules that prohibit pushing back a time schedule, and no rules that require a specific reason to change a schedule. There is no rule the meet director can't delay a 4x4 for 5 hours.
There was a USATF certified official there starting the race, you can clearly see in the video. The timer was still there with their FAT timing system. It is all caught on video, they legit ran the time in the results.
Results being posted doesn't mean the meet had been declared over, because every 2 day meet posts results after day 1 when the meet is clearly not over.
A meet is over when all events have been completed. They made the decision to delay the 4x4. This is allowed. No other teams were entered, so they did not need permission to due so.
I called this unethical in an earlier post, but after reading this I actually agree that it doesn't break any rules.
I've seen meets delay distance events because of rain. There are no injury risks of running in the rain, so the only reason to delay is so the athletes can run faster times. Are we going to disallow a qualifying performance that came after a 3 hour weather delay (when there is no thunder)?
I've seen distance races get moved up 6 hours or moved back 6 hours due to high temperatures. This is VERY frequent.
How do we know they didn't decide 3 days prior to change the time of the 4x4 (once they saw the entries and they were the only team) but just never changed the schedule online? There is no requirement to change the online schedule.
We know MU didn't decide the time change 3 days prior because they posted a meet recap on their website around 6:00 pm, well before they ran their women's 4x400. There were no other factors which could have caused a delay - weather-wise, facilities-wise, etc. Also, if you look at the meet schedule PDF, you can clearly see the 8:30 pm start time for the women's 4x400 is written in a slightly different font, so it was likely added to the original document well after its initial creation (others have noted this discrepancy, too). Therefore, this was a deliberate attempt by MU coaches to deceive and is clearly unethical. Glad they got caught and I hope they get punished in addition to the DQ.
Sorry, Lihn-Manuel, but there were probably 40-50 people in attendance along with the official timer (FAT from Finish Timing) and the starter. It’s amazing that the NCAA Contacted timereporting organization- TFRRS- still has the Mount Union time as the second fastest 🤔
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
There was not a “conspiracy to deceive” by the Mount Union coaching staff.
They may not have conspired to deceive or even do something outside of the rules. Their intention doesn't make it more ethical in any way. As a parent of someone on the team you can support your child and the university and team for which they compete, but it's also okay to also understand that the way in which this 4x4 was handled is not right.
She is receiving a Grade A education and is running track for a coach that has over 100 athletes that would walk through fire for him. (Unlike some coaches that the athletes would throw into the fire.)
I'm sure the athletes love him. Who wouldn't love a coach that is willing to try to rig the system for their benefit, instead of just admitting that he blew it and they are not going to the National Championships?
As we all know hind sight is 20/20 - I’m sure Ray Fosse would not have blocked the plate without the ball in the 1970 MLB All Star game- I’m sure the MU coach would have had them run in the meet. 2 of the members didn’t run any events on Saturday until the 8:30 race.
You need to get your facts correct. There were about 40-50 people in attendance, a FAT timer from Finish Timing, and an official starter. There was no deceit intended. The only violation the NCAA found was a violation of Article 23.
I know that you think you are being supportive, but the fact that you don't see anything wrong with what Mount Union did here is as big of an indictment on the program culture as this stunt of them cancelling the 4x400m and running it by themselves 5 hours later after seeing they got bumped in the rankings.
If my alma mater did this they would be pilloried by the alumni group.
I know that you think you are being supportive, but the fact that you don't see anything wrong with what Mount Union did here is as big of an indictment on the program culture as this stunt of them cancelling the 4x400m and running it by themselves 5 hours later after seeing they got bumped in the rankings.
If my alma mater did this they would be pilloried by the alumni group.
Hear hear.
However should we be surprised? Mt. Union has been cheating on the football side forever, obviously giving scholarships to D1-level but not pro-potential kids so they can play D3 and clean up.
You need to get your facts correct. There were about 40-50 people in attendance, a FAT timer from Finish Timing, and an official starter. There was no deceit intended. The only violation the NCAA found was a violation of Article 23.
This really makes me chuckle. "They didn't find any violations, except for the violation of Article 23!"
I get it, your kid got hosed. I feel bad for her, really, I do. The Coach is 100% to blame though and to be frank with you, I'm surprised there isn't more reprimand than the simple DQ of the time.
You know, this isn't a binary concept. Nobody's disputing the time (that I can see). The video on YouTube isn't sped up by 0.5% or something to show that they ran a time that they did not. You can agree they ran fast and also hold the idea that they don't belong at nationals...
You yourself admit, they violated a rule. This sport doesn't have 10 yard penalties and cannot send a team to the free throw line, so if a mark was in violation of a rule, the recourse is disqualification of the mark, in some form or another.
The intentional obfuscation is huge issue (in fact, THE ISSUE), and I'm sorry that you can't see that there's a problem with that.
I've never met the coach, and I'm not going to speak towards ill intentions, but there was clearly intention with their actions. Simply stating that they didn't intend to deceive anyone isn't the same as doing right.
You need to get your facts correct. There were about 40-50 people in attendance, a FAT timer from Finish Timing, and an official starter. There was no deceit intended. The only violation the NCAA found was a violation of Article 23.
You still haven't addressed WHY if it was so important to them, they didn't run it at the original time, take their shot at an improved time, and then let the cards fall where they may, like every other D3 team out there that ran a last chance meet.
We can all also agree that there were other people in the building, but WHERE were the other teams during this portion of the meet if you want to count this 5 hour delayed section of the meet as legal. Would they testify that they new it was happened and chose to leave, OR did they think the meet was over after the first cancelled/delayed 4x4 and left to go home?
You need to get your facts correct. There were about 40-50 people in attendance, a FAT timer from Finish Timing, and an official starter. There was no deceit intended. The only violation the NCAA found was a violation of Article 23.
if we're going to pretend it's about facts, when were the starter and timer told they were going home originally? did they have 40-50 people because they asked the TF kids to come back out, and their friends, so they had some atmosphere to power the time trial?
Kind of funny how slow this time is. D3 distance is competitive but then you have a womens 4x400m running 3:50 and is ranked 2nd in the nation.
2 simple answers to why 3:50 is the number 2 time nationally, distance runners care more than any other event group (don't be a fool, we know this is true), and Title IX has all the good sprint talent go to D1 making it incredibly hard for D2,D3,NAIA,JUCO to produce good women's sprints