Kiptum's coach - "Doping is everywhere in Kenya, it's the clumsy ones who are caught”

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I thought you meant here in this discussion of experts, and he came up a number of times, and has doped at least one elite athlete, as you just confirmed. Likely four, because Decker was banned for doping, and Farah and Rupp identified as likely doping.

He is no Lydiard. He isn't respected by those who see him as a denier and apologist for Kenyan doping.

Of course you don't get it. It is the dopers who show what doping does, not the opinions of posters here like yourself. The dopers are throughout the sport. You are also brain-dead if you think they would have doped without getting a performance improvement from it.

Your word salads never amount to anything. You maintain the absurd position that there is no proof doping aids performance when countless athletes have doped for generations. As I have said - it means they are either idiots or you are. There is no doubt who is the fool. If you can't see something then it doesn't exist.

Your lap dog responds as expected. I'll go with Sage's view of you.

As usual, you live in the past. No one is Lydiard. Lydiard this, Snell that.

Just because an arrogant fool like you doesn't respect Renato it doesn't mean he is not a much respected coach.

He certainly is more liked and respected than you have ever been in your miserable life.

It stung, didn't it? Good.

You pay me the unintended compliment of hanging on every word I say. I've got you like a performing dog that jumps on my signal.

But the upshot of this thread is that we are left with the unrefuted claim by Kiptum's coach that doping is throughout Kenyan sport - is "everywhere" - but only the incompetent ("clumsy") are caught.

The rekrunner/doping-denier response is that doping is found in other countries, too, which is utterly irrelevant to the coach's point about the pervasiveness of doping in Kenyan sport and overlooks the fact that few countries dope to the extent Kenya does. Unable to say the coach is wrong he then reverts to his fallback position, that even if they do dope there is no proof it helps them - which means Kenyan athletes must be doubly stupid, by risking their careers while getting no tangible benefit from breaking the rules.

Projecting again.

Intended or unintended, only you can see a compliment, and that's because of your incurable narcissism.

I am a performing dog jumping on your signal??? 😂😂😂 Oh, the irony. You are the performing dog jumping on the signal of any thread on African athletes. You spend countless hours a day here!

You are pathetic, Fido.

Yeah, it stung. Good! 😊

Come on Jaky, WADA tells me doping is worldwide.

The question you take for granted is, what do all these doping busts have to do with performance? If you want to establish a relation between these two variables, you have to look at both together, with enough samples to at least establish, and hopefully measure, the correlation. And then you have to hope that the correlation is not spurious, say because you cherry-picked the samples, or because of some other hidden cause.

Even then, that will not be enough. If by some stroke of omniscience, we established beyond all reasonable doubt that "Doping works", this is still not enough to support allegations that any performance, even the latest round of world records, is doped. To do that requires establishing "*only* doping works".

Note that this thread is not about elite performance. In the original post and linked article -- Kiptum's coach did not talk about peformance, but about negligence, and a lack of education and information.

Like you said, the opinions of posters here, like myself (sic), and yourself (sic), (what is reflexive here?) are not relevant. What I think shouldn't be part of the decision making process.

To show what doping does, actually requires someone measuring what doping does. Not before and after, as you often see in anti-doping research, but with and without, all other things kept equal. None of your doped athletes, their coaches, nor your authorities, have done that.

Lacking that, we are just arguing within the realm of speculation and imagination and faith.

That is my view which you cannot accept -- you do not have the facts and evidence and observations to lift your set of strongly held, yet simple and naive and ignorant, beliefs out of the realm of imagination and allegation and faith.

Recall that doping works on East Africans *the same way* it works on everyone else.

You keep forgetting that most of the world, athletes ethnically originating from 5 continents representing 85% of the world, has virtually stopped improving (*) in the last 3-4 decades, across the board, during the time you believe the power of doping has advanced, and despite what you allege doping can do and/or has done, and how much more powerful it has become since the days of Lydiard.

(*) (Women are a different story, with some exceptions due to both the recent maturity of the events, and their response to male hormones in events which benefit from increased strength.)

Remind me again, which of your authorities are elite East Africans, or have coached East Africans to elite performances, or are otherwise qualifed to explain all the causes of elite East African performances? By default, I will assume that a non-answer from you is a tacit concession that you cannot establish their authority, lacking both information and knowledge.

Still projecting.

It stung so bad you came here to post that at 5 a.m. 😊🐝

If doping didn't have an effect upon performance it wouldn't be an issue. Indeed, it wouldn't exist. A billion dollar industry, as doping is, would not have been built on a fiction. That you keep trying to argue doping doesn't do what its users know it does verges on deranged. Kiptum's coach knows what doping does, which is why he made no mention of performance. It would have been redundant.

But you can't ignore anything I post.

Sure "(Salazar) came up a number of times" in discussions among non-experts, but what I mean by *here* is all the posters who try to make definitive claims about how elite performances can only be likely the result of doping. Between Canova, and all the remaining anonymous posters who attempt to cast doubt on him, who among them has the authority to offer opinions about elite performance?

Assuming we expand that to all the previously listed "authorities", the question then becomes, what are they really saying, about the relation between elite performances, and doping? Scientists and lawyers are not qualified to speak about what is required to cause elite performance. Athletes typically do not measure improvements in a controlled way, and will ignore confounders like placebo effect, and other changes. So on the one hand, Canova has the experience and authority to speak about causing elite performance, presumably without doping. On the other hand, we have, uh, um, well, um, ... oh we'll just have to come back to that.

But is Salazar a good answer? On the surface, it might appear to be, based on all the gossip in this forum and among journalists and pundits in the last 10 years, but when you scratch the surface, there are many serious questions unanswered.

Did Salazar dope even at least one elite athlete? By most accounts, he stopped being elite in 1982, after the Duel in the Sun. I forget exactly, when did he start doping? 1994? He did come back to win Comrades, after being prescribed Prozac. Is Prozac banned? Was it in 1994? None of this says that Salazar doped in 1982 or before, when he was elite.

Did Decker dope? It's true she was banned for doping, but that decision seems highly questionable and to have been based on both bad science, and bad law, and aggressive prosecution. In 1998, this seems more like a political assertion of power from well-meaning but over-zealous and possibly frustrated anti-doping advocates looking for a big scalp. Based on a contemperaneous assessment of anti-doping practices in the years before the creation of WADA and USADA, Decker was the victim of various unjust legal practices, e.g. double jeopardy, lack of speedy trial, and shifting and increasing the burden years later with a principle of strict liability.

Did Salazar train Decker? In a recent interview, she says that Dellinger was always her coach, and Salazar was just a helpful mentor who was always around.

I have some serious doubts anyone is able to link Salazar's coaching to Decker's ban, on top of my serious doubts that she even doped in the first place.

Similarly, it doesn't seem all that likely that "likely doping" that was found in an unofficial context used for Rupp and Farah translates to a genuine likelihood in the real world.

In any case, what elite performances could Salazar's alleged doping of these four athletes potentially have brought? A mid to late-30s Decker and Salazar were not close to setting any distance records in the '90s with testosterone. When compared to the fastest elite Kenyan (and Ethiopian) performances, Rupp and Farah were fast, but never quite in the same ballpark. Slo Mo dominated on the track in 5000m and 10000m when most of his main competition moved to the roads.