And costs like 170k. So basically in 10 years we have doubled the price and mileage. Does that really sound like progress?
Range is easy to add when you are willing to build a big expensive car. It is a lot harder to do in a mass production car that is price sensitive. Things are getting better but the pace is slow. It isn't remotely at the level to encourage people to upgrade quickly....
Over the last 10 years, Tesla has dramatically lowered cost and increased range without increasing battery volume. Yes, they have made a ton of progress.
Tesla has once again increased prices across its lineup, pulling the automaker even further away from mass-market affordability. The Tesla Model 3 was launched with the promise of a $35,000 base price, but now the base Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive starts at $48,190. That's an increase of $2,000 from its most recent (higher) price, and nearly a third higher than this time last year, when you could get a Model 3 Standard Range Plus for $37,190. Today's base Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive has more range than the Standard Range Plus, but that discontinued model accelerated quicker. The Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive also uses LFP battery cells, which aren't as desirable for those who encounter extreme cold.
China doesn't care about the environment. Please don't say that. What are they doing to improve the environment?
China leads the world in EV sales.
China leads the world in solar panel manufacturing.
China leads the world in solar panel deployment.
China is building the most modern grid in the world, which will be optimized for renewable energy.
They still aren't doing enough, but China's leaders have shown a lot more willingness to embrace green technology than ours have.
China again leads the world in CO2 emissions. In fact China's CO2 emissions are roughly equal to the next 8 countries combined. They are doing a great job!
China does care about the environment and they are selling a lot more EVs in China than in the US, both as a percentage and raw units sold.
Also, China is doing a better job at transitioning to clean energy. This is something I hope the Inflation Reduction Act will change.
The problem is that China manufactures all the stuff we buy so they currently need a lot more coal power.
No nation on earth is really doing enough, but we can't look down on China when our own environmental record is so abysmal.
Our CO2 emissions have been going down. China's CO2 emissions are roughly the same as the US, India, Russia, Japan, Iran, Germany and South Korea if your combine all of those countries. Again, what is China doing to improve the environment?
It is debatable whether or not our emissions have actually fallen. The reason given for our slight emissions decline is because we have been switching to natural gas from coal. But that doesn't take into account the massive amount of methane leakage from our natural gas wells.
China still emits far less than the US on a per capita basis. And if you consider total emissions over time, the US is still way ahead.
1) Are you asking for studies that take everything into account and show that EVs are a lot greener? There have been plenty. Here is one. I haven't examined it closely, but if you don't like that one just Google for more. Every reputable study shows that lifetime emissions for an EV is much, much lower than gas cars.
2) Yes, every nation needs to do its part. I suspect that your mother taught you if someone else is doing something bad that doesn't mean you can do it too.
Lol. Is this how the woke will endlessly live through their lives? Searching for something on the internet, finding something they like, and then providing what they found as the truth and only the truth? And if you disagree they start foaming at the mouth. Not once do you stop and and think this organization -ICCT is knee deep into this green agenda and what they provide will be extremely biased? I've seen work where the total emissions dont differ much or are skewed towards ICE having lower overall emissions.
As I said, there are many studies like this that all show the same thing. If you don't trust the study I posted, find another one.
Every study I've ever seen that compares full lifetime emissions shows that gas cars emit a LOT more than EVs. The studies consider everything from raw materials and manufacturing to when the car gets junked. EVs even win if you charge in West Virginia where they get all their electricity from coal.
The law only affects the sales of new EVs. You can still own and drive a gas car if you want after 2035.
Yeah, I know. I was responding to the poster who said that soon after you will not be able to legally operate an ICE car. I don’t think that will happen in my lifetime, and I’m in my mid 40s.
I think EVs have great advantages, and will someday improve the overall driving experience. Some already do, but they are the models that cost north of $100K and well above that in certain cases.
I still say it’s not the same experience as shifting your own gears in a lightweight ICE car with a glorious exhaust tone. I’ve done plenty of track racing and driven super cars on the road, and driving slow cars quickly is much more fun than driving fast cars slowly.
I’d buy the Taycan TurboS or the Lucid Air if I had an extra $200K to drop on a 4th car, but I’ll likely get a BMW iX or a Rivian SUV in 5 years or so to replace my daily X5. I’m keeping my M2 CS 6 speed, as it’s amazing and I think it will be worth 50+% more than I paid for it in 10 years. It’s already 20% more than I paid on the used market.
Have you tried the Tesla Model S Plaid? It's like being shot out of a cannon.
Just an example of how some environmental controls can correct a pollution problem, in the late '60s the smog in the LA/ Long Beach area was so bad that as a cross country runner the foul air at times would make me puke during workouts- literally. Several years later after emission requirements were implemented in CA the number of critical smog level days had dropped dramatically and as a runner was really noticeable.
Our CO2 emissions have been going down. China's CO2 emissions are roughly the same as the US, India, Russia, Japan, Iran, Germany and South Korea if your combine all of those countries. Again, what is China doing to improve the environment?
It is debatable whether or not our emissions have actually fallen. The reason given for our slight emissions decline is because we have been switching to natural gas from coal. But that doesn't take into account the massive amount of methane leakage from our natural gas wells.
China still emits far less than the US on a per capita basis. And if you consider total emissions over time, the US is still way ahead.
The US has 0.868 cars per capita. China has 0.219 cars per capita. It’s not because China is trying to be green, it’s because of the large amount of poor, rural Chinese.
I love these green arguments as well as debate via our electronic devices in air climate controlled homes. I’d wager a good amount that your device was made by a Chinese worker making less per day than most of us do in 30 minutes.
I just drive up to my car dealership around the corner on Saturday night, plug in to their free level 2 charger and pick the car up the next morning fully charged for the week for free. I'm saving about $300/mo on fuel vs if I had a gasoline vehicle.
Your EV likely cost about $60,000 versus a $30,000 ICE. That $30,000 in savings you can invest and it will be worth $60,000 in 6 years at historical returns and $120,000 in 12 years at historical returns. I think I will go with the ICE.
There is no reason to compare a $60,000 EV to a $30,000 ICE car. You can get a comparable EV for the same price as an ICE. That is especially true with the Inflation Reduction Act.
Yeah, I know. I was responding to the poster who said that soon after you will not be able to legally operate an ICE car. I don’t think that will happen in my lifetime, and I’m in my mid 40s.
I think EVs have great advantages, and will someday improve the overall driving experience. Some already do, but they are the models that cost north of $100K and well above that in certain cases.
I still say it’s not the same experience as shifting your own gears in a lightweight ICE car with a glorious exhaust tone. I’ve done plenty of track racing and driven super cars on the road, and driving slow cars quickly is much more fun than driving fast cars slowly.
I’d buy the Taycan TurboS or the Lucid Air if I had an extra $200K to drop on a 4th car, but I’ll likely get a BMW iX or a Rivian SUV in 5 years or so to replace my daily X5. I’m keeping my M2 CS 6 speed, as it’s amazing and I think it will be worth 50+% more than I paid for it in 10 years. It’s already 20% more than I paid on the used market.
Have you tried the Tesla Model S Plaid? It's like being shot out of a cannon.
No, it’s a high 9 second 1/4 mile car. I’ve driven a low 10 second 1/4 mile car that is also much more capable on a road course. I’m sure the acceleration is insane. The same problem I had with that 10 second car on the street is that you are speeding in about 2 seconds and jail territory in less than 10 seconds.
I prefer handling and feel over straight line speed. I also prefer physical buttons and driver interaction over giant screens to adjust the AC and self driving. The Plaid is an engineering marvel and not that expensive given what it can do, it’s just not my kind of car. I’d be more interested in the Model X Performance/Plaid as a family hauler, but I’d lean towards the high range models over the ridiculous speed.
I just went to abetterrouteplanner.com and input a 600 mile EV trip from my house. It only required 3 stops of 20 minutes each. This is enough time to use the bathroom and get something to eat.
On your gas car trip of that length, you will almost certainly make stops that are longer than 5 minutes because you still need to eat and use the bathroom.
So it's a slightly longer trip when you need to go 600 miles in one day. But you more than make up for the time while you are at home because you never need to visit a gas station or a Quick Lube.
I went to the bathroom when I bought gas. Each stop was about five minutes. I did not stop to eat. The trip took about 9:30 and I was ready to be done in the last half hour. Three 20 minute stops would have extended the trip by about an hour even if it gets me out of a five minute bi weekly stop at a gas station or a semi annual 20 minute stop at Jiffy Lube.
If you took longer breaks, maybe you wouldn't have been so tired at the end.
Having a quiet EV on road trips helps with fatigue. It's even more relaxing if you have a Tesla that drives itself.
Even if by "biweekly", you mean every two weeks, that's 170 minutes for gas and oil changes during the year. If by "biweekly" you mean twice a week then it's 560 minutes.
You might still come out ahead with a gas car if you do a lot of long trips. But if you are driving so little that you only need oil changes twice a year, that's probably not the case.
Trust me, it's really nice to never worry about keeping your tank full. With an EV you leave home with a full battery every morning.
Our CO2 emissions have been going down. China's CO2 emissions are roughly the same as the US, India, Russia, Japan, Iran, Germany and South Korea if your combine all of those countries. Again, what is China doing to improve the environment?
It is debatable whether or not our emissions have actually fallen. The reason given for our slight emissions decline is because we have been switching to natural gas from coal. But that doesn't take into account the massive amount of methane leakage from our natural gas wells.
China still emits far less than the US on a per capita basis. And if you consider total emissions over time, the US is still way ahead.
How is it debatable? It ISN'T debatable. In 1997 we had 20 metric tons per capita. In 2019 it was reduced to 14 metric tons per capita. Please explain how that fact is debatable.
Carbon dioxide emissions are those stemming from the burning of fossil fuels and the manufacture of cement. They include carbon dioxide produced during consumption of solid, liquid, and gas fuels and gas flaring.
And costs like 170k. So basically in 10 years we have doubled the price and mileage. Does that really sound like progress?
Range is easy to add when you are willing to build a big expensive car. It is a lot harder to do in a mass production car that is price sensitive. Things are getting better but the pace is slow. It isn't remotely at the level to encourage people to upgrade quickly....
Over the last 10 years, Tesla has dramatically lowered cost and increased range without increasing battery volume. Yes, they have made a ton of progress.
So how much cheaper is the model S that I can buy today versus 10 years ago? How much farther does it go? It started at 260 miles and like 65k. So now does it sell for 50k and go 500miles? What type of drastic increases have when seen over a decade? And that is a decade. Make it Like 3 years like we were talking about for rapid improvement and there is almost now improvement.
As I said there have been small steady changes. Nothing that is going to lead you to get a new car every 3 years.
Over the last 10 years, Tesla has dramatically lowered cost and increased range without increasing battery volume. Yes, they have made a ton of progress.
Tesla has once again increased prices across its lineup, pulling the automaker even further away from mass-market affordability. The Tesla Model 3 was launched with the promise of a $35,000 base price, but now the base Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive starts at $48,190. That's an increase of $2,000 from its most recent (higher) price, and nearly a third higher than this time last year, when you could get a Model 3 Standard Range Plus for $37,190. Today's base Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive has more range than the Standard Range Plus, but that discontinued model accelerated quicker. The Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive also uses LFP battery cells, which aren't as desirable for those who encounter extreme cold.
The base Model 3 now costs $46,990, not $48,190. I just bought one last week and paid $39,990 because I ordered it several months ago.
You are correct that the price has gone way up recently. That is because the price of materials has gone up and because Teslas are so popular.
The LFP batteries have both advantages and disadvantages. LFP batteries last longer and they can be charged to 100% daily without degradation.
And everything I said is true. Over the last 10 years, Tesla has dramatically lowered cost and increased range without increasing battery volume. Yes, they have made a ton of progress.
And this bodes well for the future of EVs. As production continues to ramp up, cost per unit continues to go down. So when supply can meet demand prices will fall. The prices will fall dramatically if Tesla can get some competition.
Over the last 10 years, Tesla has dramatically lowered cost and increased range without increasing battery volume. Yes, they have made a ton of progress.
So how much cheaper is the model S that I can buy today versus 10 years ago? How much farther does it go? It started at 260 miles and like 65k. So now does it sell for 50k and go 500miles? What type of drastic increases have when seen over a decade? And that is a decade. Make it Like 3 years like we were talking about for rapid improvement and there is almost now improvement.
As I said there have been small steady changes. Nothing that is going to lead you to get a new car every 3 years.
Yeah, how much is a Tesla Model S now versus 10 years ago? You said Tesla how dramatically lowered costs. But a Model S cost $59,000 in 2012. The base price currently for a Model S is $104,000. So that is what you call lowering costs?
Tesla has once again increased prices across its lineup, pulling the automaker even further away from mass-market affordability. The Tesla Model 3 was launched with the promise of a $35,000 base price, but now the base Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive starts at $48,190. That's an increase of $2,000 from its most recent (higher) price, and nearly a third higher than this time last year, when you could get a Model 3 Standard Range Plus for $37,190. Today's base Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive has more range than the Standard Range Plus, but that discontinued model accelerated quicker. The Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive also uses LFP battery cells, which aren't as desirable for those who encounter extreme cold.
The base Model 3 now costs $46,990, not $48,190. I just bought one last week and paid $39,990 because I ordered it several months ago.
You are correct that the price has gone way up recently. That is because the price of materials has gone up and because Teslas are so popular.
The LFP batteries have both advantages and disadvantages. LFP batteries last longer and they can be charged to 100% daily without degradation.
And everything I said is true. Over the last 10 years, Tesla has dramatically lowered cost and increased range without increasing battery volume. Yes, they have made a ton of progress.
And this bodes well for the future of EVs. As production continues to ramp up, cost per unit continues to go down. So when supply can meet demand prices will fall. The prices will fall dramatically if Tesla can get some competition.
Please explain how Tesla has dramatically lowered costs over the last 10 years when a Model S that cost $59,000 in 2012 now has a base price $45,000 more? So they are dramatically lowering costs and just pocketing that extra money? Is that what they are doing?
China leads the world in solar panel manufacturing.
China leads the world in solar panel deployment.
China is building the most modern grid in the world, which will be optimized for renewable energy.
They still aren't doing enough, but China's leaders have shown a lot more willingness to embrace green technology than ours have.
China again leads the world in CO2 emissions. In fact China's CO2 emissions are roughly equal to the next 8 countries combined. They are doing a great job!
That's not true at all. You are making stuff up.
China's emissions are roughly double the US. But China has more than four times the population. So US emissions per capita are more than double the emissions from China.
Just an example of how some environmental controls can correct a pollution problem, in the late '60s the smog in the LA/ Long Beach area was so bad that as a cross country runner the foul air at times would make me puke during workouts- literally. Several years later after emission requirements were implemented in CA the number of critical smog level days had dropped dramatically and as a runner was really noticeable.
Yes, I've always wondered why so many people on a running forum love air pollution.
It is debatable whether or not our emissions have actually fallen. The reason given for our slight emissions decline is because we have been switching to natural gas from coal. But that doesn't take into account the massive amount of methane leakage from our natural gas wells.
China still emits far less than the US on a per capita basis. And if you consider total emissions over time, the US is still way ahead.
How is it debatable? It ISN'T debatable. In 1997 we had 20 metric tons per capita. In 2019 it was reduced to 14 metric tons per capita. Please explain how that fact is debatable.