140 miles per week.

How many straight days is it safe to run without taking a day off in the middle of a XC season and in the middle of summer training..

Tired Guy wrote:

The key here is that you're not really running at 8:00 pace for very long. By the half mile mark we would already be at 7:00 minute pace and by the mile mark at 6:40. I'm guessing that my progression runs were almost the same butfor me, when I was running BIG miles 6:40 pace took a very small amount of effort. I like the first mile of my progression un to take next to no effort. Almost a shuffle. I know I'm not alone on this feeling.

This sounds very similar to Rob DeCastella's method. Most all his workouts started at a mere jog but within a mile or mile and half he was at 6:00 pace. That works well for us who do not do much stretching before a run.

Hhhmmm? wrote:

NIKE FREE ME, During your first time at high mileage, what was your weekly buildup to reaching your peak mileage? How much of a jump did you make from your previous mileage, and how fast did you make it? What do you mean by you "didn't stray much?" Did you maintain those 140 mile weeks in between the end of indoor and the end of outdoor track? Thanks for the input your story is great

There as no realk build up. I jumped in right over my head to 18+ miles a day from the average being 12-15. I just concentrated in days, not weekly miles. The whole point is doing it really really REALLY SLOW. not just at first, but the whole time. Every easy run should be slow, 8 min pace, but you make up for it with how much you are doing as well as your hard days really pushing your LT. If you do it slow enough your body will adapt alot better than you ever thought it could. But as soon as you start to push it on your easy runs too soon, like in the first 3 months, then I think you will run into trouble (pardon the corney pun).

And I have never really tried to peak. mostly cause I don't know how. I always thought that people were just guessing, had no evidence on peaking. I never trusted any of it, prolly mostly mental I know, but your mind is a large part of peak performances. So on "peaking" weeks I just lower the volume from 130's to 110-115, with only one or two tough LT days and lots of slow rec. The one time I did try to peak and cut the miles down I felt god aweful tierd. and untill I know a perfect way to peak I'll continue this way as long as it is working for me. In the past year or two I think I found peaking to be an overrated aspect of training.

And by didn't stray much, I mean simply I went day by day 18-22ish miles. Just got them in each day. no matter how much it took, or even some days how many runs it took. And I didnt stray from that for quite a few months to say the least. and am still doing it. More than a year now I suppose. Wow. Im a pretty big loser. I've been doing this over a year. --not recomended for the socially conscience--

Training numbers are great, but the important thing in my mind is racing times. So what if you have averaged 130 mpw for the past year, what have your race times done in that time?

Great job, NFM! With those great 800-3000 times, doyou have to fight off the urg to see what you can do with maybe a few interval sessions? Maybe during outdoor. On the other hand, i know, why mess with what's working, huh? Always so many choices, sounds like you are making the right ones!

Don't mind me, I found your race times. I just had to read a little. Great work.

Also, NFM, you do realize that those times point to a sub-14:00 5K, assuming you have decent endurance (heh). Not bad for what a lot of guys would consider "jogging".

I have a young friend who is putting in about 140/week for Ultras. I'll steer him to this thread and encourage him to try some shorter races to see how he does (he has good innate footspeed).

Nike Free Me, I'm curious about where you go to school. Those are certainly good times, nationally competative except for in DI. But you seem to be just making this all up on your own. What role does your coach play in your training if any? It seems odd to me (I came from a very strictly run program), that a coach would just let you do whatever you want with no input. My guess would be that his/her most valuable input would come in the form a tapering. My advice on that would be that it is something that should be done gradually, you don't just one week drop 20 miles and go easier on easy days. Your training the whole season should by periodized by gradually the whole time moving to slightly shorter and more intence workouts and slightly lower overall mileage so that for a guy like you when you want to peak you should be down to probably 90-100 miles a week. This would be combined with shorter more specific workouts. I know everybody is different with how they physiologically react to training, but my guess is if you did that correctly you'd start feeling like you could sprint forever while running 100 miles a week and your race times would drop drastically. But hey, why take my advice, what you're doing is working out pretty well.

Dave Bedford ran a 10k WR and ran upwards of 200 miles a week.

Alan

how in gods name do you BUILD UP to 140miles a week to runners who are not past the 45-50range?? Is it better too stay at 80-85 for awhile then move up?

I would really like to see previous years milege?

Or did you just build up off a break and got that high?

NIKE FREE ME, when you say you jump right into it do you mean, you take a week off in between seasons and your first week back you run 140 miles? I usually run about 80 miles a week, but after a break I build up to it starting at about 50 then the next week maybe 65 then the next maybe 75. I noticed that in Tommy McArcdle's and Josh Mcdougal's training logs they tend to jump right back into high mileage and not use much of a build up phase. Is this common among high mileage runners?

Who here does a long buildup when they are running 100+ miles a week? It seems that if you are running 100+ a week that it takes to long to gradually build into it.

O and NIKE FREE ME, I too would like to know how you arrange doing this much high mileage with your coach.Thanks

140 mile weeks couldn't work for everyone. But where to draw the line...

Nike Free- what made you hit on 8:00 pace as the most effective pace, and perhaps more impoprtantly, why have you not sped up that pace as you have improved dramatically? I assume that your progression runs HAVE sped up a lot.

Maybe I'm different, but it took years for me to get up to higher mileage. I'm finally up to around 100 a week and I have the desire for more, but if the body won't let me I'm not going there.

The pace matters greatly. only like 5% out there I believe would be able to handle the miles at a normal pace. The point is for them to be easy, not just running, but easy running. Just ask yourself for a moment...what is the point of running long days, or just regular runs? It is primarily to (in basic elementery terms) to get used to running and to recover between hard days. It has been proven that running more and more makes your that much more efficient. No matter what pace you run it at. As long as you are running alot your body will find a way to do it easier and save energy. This will happen even more so with a large number of miles. Now the second goal is to do all this distance at a recovery pace enough to recover best for your next workout to maximize it. there is no point in doing a workout when you are still sore from the last one, it becomes counter productive, thus a downward spirial. I, as many could, would have the same heart rate at 7min pace as I do at 8:30 pace. It is true, I've done the testing. My heart doesnt start to rapidly speed up untill I start to push around 6:45-30 pace. So if my heart rate is 65-70% from 7min to 8min. My heart and blood/oxy system is getting the same workout no matter what the pace is, the only thing is what will help me recover better and faster. That most certainly is the slowest pace I can do without cheating myself. Hence the 8min pace as easy running. Does the trick, anyone who is refusing this fact needs to open thier eyes. There is a point to easy running, it is meant to be easy- for the purpose of getting stronger overall aerobically and recovering! THEY ARE NOT JUNK MILES. THE ONLY JUNK MILES ARE THE ONES DONE TOO SLOW TO TOUCH MY L.T. WHILE BEIING TOO FAST TO RECOVER FULLY FROM. It is easy, it just takes hard work. Truly does. it is not easy to run this much, mentally, but I do just "jump into it." It is alot easier than you think. And it is not just me. Get the right shoes, Double every day. Don't push yourself too hard on workout days to the point of death, remember the big picture and run EASY ON YOUR EASY RUNS. Just do it alot more than you did before. That is all there is to it. Trials of Miles.

and I really don't appreciate the comments about my coach and my situation. It is really no one's business. I was an average runner, 14:50 type guy, running alot. 100+ miles a week, at 7min pace or faster, and just not getting to the place I wanted. As I am sure (becuase of the level of interest from some of you) many of you feel the same way. It just wasn't getting me anywhere. My coach is not a nazi, but he isn't stupid either. I talked to him, go figure. I told him I wasn't getting the drastic improvements I wanted, and was considering transfering. We talked one day for at least 4 hours. He told me to do research on some training I felt would help me best, becuase the others on my team were getting better, but I was only by small bits. I read alot. JK's stuff is gold. That thing on Bruce Hide is something everyone should read. Between Bruce and Wejo everyone should look into this system. But more than that I looked into A.L. and snell's training, even some of steve scott's. Also looked into what some people over time did, and what they all had in common on a large timeline. They ALL stayed, for the most part, injury free and did A LOT of miles. NOW HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? could it just be a coinsideince? So I went back to my coach for another lengthy convo. I had tons of notes and print outs and we talked it all over. Told him what I think worked for me in H.S. when I was my own coach, and what had worked for me here. I was convinced about having tons of miles, and for them to be as easy as they need to be (just came out to be around 8ish pace) and did alot of LT stuff, and then tons of hills (from steve scott's training). Combine all those factors and me and MY COACH came up with what I have now. Granted I don't really know how to peak well off this much mileage. We have tried, do a three week build down w/fast reps in place of my prog/hill runs. But it just left me tired and mentally worn out. It also left me with the feeling that I wasted almost a month of training, totally interupted the flow I had going. I'd perfer not to try and peak at all. I feel peaking, like burning out, is all in your head.

Now I really am shocked that people want to hear my story, but I will ask to please stop asking about my coach and making assumptions about what is going on. 1st of all it is really none of anyone's business, and it is not important in this topic. Deal with it.

All this training ask is for you to open your mind and grow a pair of balls. It takes alot, but you just need to keep terlling yourself it can be done. But it all relys on the easy running, as long as you are doing alot (100 wont cut it, it needs to be 135+ to take FULL EFFECT) and yiu are doing the right workouts inbetween. it will not happen over night. it will take 1/2 a year untill you see great results, and it could not max out fully for a couple of years. Just hang on, and enjoy the very boring ride of a long distance loser.

-FREE

Oh, and you are right. 140 miles could never work for everyone...It will never work for the people who never try.

Do it slow, get the right shoes and do it all on soft surfaces.

Thanks for the reply, NFM. You say look at Lydiard and Scott, but those guys are out there busting 6:00 miles or better. Certainly nothing like 8:00. And to return to an earlier question, why haven't you upped the pace as you have improved, to say, 7:30/mile? And for a mediocre guy (16:00 5K) should I start out at 9:00, or figure it out with a HRM? Thanks in advance and good luck in your outdoor.

What's with the need to be so defensive and hostile after a simple question. All you needed to say was that this was something I came up with in a combined effort with my coach and my own research. Your previous comments made it sound like you were entirely self coached. That is something that is kinda odd, I guess it wasn't necessary to ask where you run and who your coach is, but still, just respectfully decline to answer. And you are wrong, such high mileage isn't the answer for everyone. This is where you are simply and obviously wrong. People's bodies react differently to different stimuli, for some people the sweet spot might be 85, for others 115, you think you've found yours, but maybe you haven't. For a guy who's still competeing in college that's an extremely arrogant statement to make.

NIKE FREE ME wrote:

Oh, and you are right. 140 miles could never work for everyone...It will never work for the people who never try.

Do it slow, get the right shoes and do it all on soft surfaces.

OK I don't want to call you out but I am trying to figure this thread out. Very informative stuff thanks to all those involved.

A few questions for NIKE FREE ME. You say that you have been to 145 mpw 5 times, but you have averaged 120-130 for over 6 months. You also mentioned that you have run 12 months at 130 mpw. You say in another part you are usually around 140 mpw, but when asked for training you post something 9 months old. So I am a bit mixed up on your mileage to say the least. Anyway you could post your mileage progression. Like how many mpw you have run for the last 6 months or year or something? Thanks.