People with DSDs tend to be identified much earlier in life in first world countries.
It's been said, though, that these genetic disorders are more common in parts of Africa, so when these children are born, midwives are not always surprised. It's also been said that sporting officials actually look for these children in order to do well in international competitions. I don't really know if that's true or not, but I think there's something to that rumor.
It might be an idea to alter the classifications from being gender based to having an XX and an XY class. That would remove all of the political issues around gender identification and ensure that athletes are competing on a level playing field without leading to discrimination (e.g. banning DSD athletes altogether)
The current DSD regulations also cover people with PAIS, who do not have normal androgen receptors, and therefore cannot achieve the peak levels of physical fitness that other XY athletes can.
This point was emphasized in Chand v. IAAF, and IAAF completely accepted it.
But whether they have the same advantage as other XY athletes is not the point, according to CAS. Because DSD regulations are about the eligibility in women's sports, and not about men's sports.
...I suspect that amongst the overall male population, there is enormous variability in androgen receptor function and thus ability to utilize the T that the testes produce...
The ridiculous rules established to allow DSD and trans-identified males into women's sports so long as they can demonstrate that their T has been lower than a certain threshold for a time opens the door to let in any males who have low T for any reason....
For sure, there's bell curve model of andro receptor function: top body builders are on the far far right of the bell curve - just google Kevin Levrone before and after steroids, very few people respond that dramatically, he's truly a receptor freak. T goes beyond muscle synthesis of course, it increases RBC, Vo2max, bone density, neurotransmitters, fat metabolism, aggression/competitiveness and even the way people perform route finding: woman (and men with low T) tend to use landmarks, men with normal T tend to use compass direction and distance. All of these would positively impact athletics, ok maybe not route finding, unless orienteering becomes an olympic sport.
You've hit another nail on the head with issues regarding threshold T levels, i'll also add, is it continuously monitored? Can a DSD athlete train at high levels of T and then back off before testing, or does the IAAF naively think random testing is enough to scare to keep them to suppressed T levels, 24 x 7 x 365?
You've hit another nail on the head with issues regarding threshold T levels, i'll also add, is it continuously monitored? Can a DSD athlete train at high levels of T and then back off before testing, or does the IAAF naively think random testing is enough to scare to keep them to suppressed T levels, 24 x 7 x 365?
They need to lower the t-level for at least six months, and maintain it below that level while they continue to compete at international level.
One of the possible changes for the new rule is to extend this initial period beyond 6 months. Another is to lower the limit from the current 5 nmol/L. But I think the most urgent is to extend the rule to events outside of 400m to one mile.
It might be an idea to alter the classifications from being gender based to having an XX and an XY class. That would remove all of the political issues around gender identification and ensure that athletes are competing on a level playing field without leading to discrimination (e.g. banning DSD athletes altogether)
So we can have all the same issues we had before and why they moved away from chromosome testing in the 90s....
I know that the frequency of these athletes is much higher in less developed nations for the reasons stated in this thread. But I also wonder about the sprint events. I mean, athletes like Semenya and Getachew are so easy to see from the “look test” because their features contrast severely with the twiggy, low muscle-mass bodies of female 10k runners.
But runners like Mboma and Masilingi, in my opinion, are MUCH harder to distinguish from other XX females competing in sprint events. There are boatloads of XX women competing in sprint events who have very similar features to plenty of the DSD athletes, and it is just much more the norm than in distance events. Take a look at all of the 100m-400m females and you are bound to find tons of square jaw lines, built shoulders, etc etc.
Are there more DSD athletes who are just better at flying under the radar due to their facial and body features? I’m not trying to be a d***, just asking genuinely. Because while Getachew and Semenya may just have extremely masculine features, what about the ones who lack such features? As a fairly soyboy looking male myself, I can’t imagine there’s not some DSD athletes who appear much more outwardly female than the obvious cases of Getachew and Semenya. If I grew my hair out and hopped in the sprints nobody would bat an eye because my body is soft AF and my features aren’t manly.
Testing every athlete for XX vs XY genetics would be no more invasive than a covid test given
What other sport has this type of nonsense? It is a freak show. Doping. DSD. Etc.
What other country? T&F is like a freakshow at this point. I'm a live-and-let-live sort of person, but this is just getting too far out there, I believe.
Why would anyone support biological males being able to compete against females. Wanting to be a woman doesn’t make you a woman. To allow this to continue is complete nonsense or should I say unfair and stupid.
Do people really still not understand the difference between DSD and trans? One is assigned at birth, the other is chosen later in life and involves transitioning. Most of the DSD athletes believed they were girls throughout their upbringing and will identify as such
Doesn't believe that you are females gets thrown out the window when you don't get a period, while other young women around you do?
You've hit another nail on the head with issues regarding threshold T levels, i'll also add, is it continuously monitored? Can a DSD athlete train at high levels of T and then back off before testing, or does the IAAF naively think random testing is enough to scare to keep them to suppressed T levels, 24 x 7 x 365?
They need to lower the t-level for at least six months, and maintain it below that level while they continue to compete at international level.
One of the possible changes for the new rule is to extend this initial period beyond 6 months. Another is to lower the limit from the current 5 nmol/L. But I think the most urgent is to extend the rule to events outside of 400m to one mile.
But how often are the athletes tested during that 6 month period? Once a month? Once a week? Every day Is all the testing regularly scheduled, are random suprise tests done? randomly? When the testing is done, what time of day does it occur? Male T levels usually vary in the morning and the evening.
In the case before the CAS, Semenya and Semenya's side argued that a big problem with IAAF/WA's T suppression regulations is that it's very hard for people with testes to reduce their T to below a certain threshold consistently and reliably using medications alone. Even when they take their medications religiously, their T is bound to be above the threshhold at certain times.
You know EXACTLY what you were doing by asking this question. You are a disgrace of a person and should feel ashamed to call yourself a journalist. Get a life. I will see to it to have your press credentials revoked
This kind of personal attack is how you try to get people to be more compassionate and inclusive? It's a newsworthy issue, and I think unrealistic to not expect it to be asked about.
I know that the frequency of these athletes is much higher in less developed nations for the reasons stated in this thread. But I also wonder about the sprint events. I mean, athletes like Semenya and Getachew are so easy to see from the “look test” because their features contrast severely with the twiggy, low muscle-mass bodies of female 10k runners.
But runners like Mboma and Masilingi, in my opinion, are MUCH harder to distinguish from other XX females competing in sprint events. There are boatloads of XX women competing in sprint events who have very similar features to plenty of the DSD athletes, and it is just much more the norm than in distance events. Take a look at all of the 100m-400m females and you are bound to find tons of square jaw lines, built shoulders, etc etc.
Are there more DSD athletes who are just better at flying under the radar due to their facial and body features? I’m not trying to be a d***, just asking genuinely. Because while Getachew and Semenya may just have extremely masculine features, what about the ones who lack such features? As a fairly soyboy looking male myself, I can’t imagine there’s not some DSD athletes who appear much more outwardly female than the obvious cases of Getachew and Semenya. If I grew my hair out and hopped in the sprints nobody would bat an eye because my body is soft AF and my features aren’t manly.
Testing every athlete for XX vs XY genetics would be no more invasive than a covid test given
Going back to genetic testing also would end all the speculation about athletes' sex based on their looks. The focus on looks, and the inability to be sure that all athletes in women's competition are female, has a negative impact not just on XY DSD athletes subjected to scrutiny and body shaming, but on many XX athletes too. And on female people generally.
Elgibility for women's and girls' sports should be based on being biologically female - that's it - not on having girlish, womanly looks and hewing to feminine beauty and grooming standards. Lots of female people look and act pretty butch or middle-of-the road in terms of gender norms - and women's and girls' sports should be a place where all kinds of females are welcome.
Do people really still not understand the difference between DSD and trans? One is assigned at birth, the other is chosen later in life and involves transitioning. Most of the DSD athletes believed they were girls throughout their upbringing and will identify as such
Doesn't believe that you are females gets thrown out the window when you don't get a period, while other young women around you do?
Emilie's statement is dead-on accurate. They are 2 different situations. However, as NYDC points out, there will be a time when these particular individuals - I literally mean these particular athletes, not necessarily every biologicaly-similar individual - find out they have no female organs or characteristics, but in fact have male ones.
There will be various 3rd world folks who never figure this all out. "I have no periods, have a beard that I frantically shave, seem to be very big and muscular compared to all women in the village but average among the men. Maybe Allah cursed me." They may go their entire lives without anyone pointing out, "You have the male, aka, Y chromosome."
But, we are talking about athletes who know exactly and specifically that this is the deal. And yet, they continue to identify as female. I wrote 'continue'. It is true that, lacking a certain appendage, they were told they were female right out of the gate. Prior to puberty, nothing happened that would lead anyone to question this. The first poster pointed this out.
The second quoted poster, however, pointed out that a time came when they could have figured out what was going on, and did. In the case of Semenya, et.al., it is perfectly clear to themselves that they meet at least some definition (possession of various internal organs and lack of others, as well as hormone levels) of 'male'. The fact that they continue to claim to be female without mammary glands, ovaries, uterus, etc. is where they overlap with trans athletes.
Both of the quoted posters are right in my view. A certain highly-publicized swimmer grew up being told he was male. At some point, he tells everyone including the NCAA to consider him female. In contrast, these runners thought they were by all metrics female for half their lives. (This is where DSD and trans are very different.) But for the other half, they have been living the charade that trans individuals are. The trans vs. DSD situations are not as different as some contend. They both have Y chromosomes and male hormone levels - and are aware of such - yet identify as women.
The synthesis is one open division in which anyone can run, and one division for xx only. It is both fair and 100% inclusive. Eliminate the names "men's" and "women's" and call them "open" and "restricted" or whatever. That way no one is forced to run in a division named for a gender with which they do not identify. Instead, everyone has an opportunity to run, and everyone runs in a division based upon underlying biology, which is the reason why we have divisions in the first place.
Having a trans or intersex athlete who identifies as a woman run in the open division -- as a woman -- would do far more to further the general acceptance of trans and intersex people than having them run against XX athletes, which only angers a vast majority of the population and is not good for moving acceptance of trans-people forward. Imagine someone with Bruce Jenner's ability winning a decathlon gold medal as Caitlyn Jenner. In 1976 this may not have been accepted, but now it would help enormously.
Just as it isn't fair for some trans or intersex athletes to run against women, it is unfair to force them to only compete against men. That is exclusionary, not inclusive. There should be a trans and intersex category, but there usually aren't enough people to make that competitive. Actually, Semenya vs. Getachew in the 800 would make a good race this year.
They have a right to compete, but we have to make sure they have fair competition. It seems that Semenya and Getachew are a little beyond the limit many people are comfortable with, even though they are within the standards that have been set.
"They have a right to compete..."
Awesome. They can go down to their local JC and get it on. And stop wasting everybody's time with their fraud.
It might be an idea to alter the classifications from being gender based to having an XX and an XY class. That would remove all of the political issues around gender identification and ensure that athletes are competing on a level playing field without leading to discrimination (e.g. banning DSD athletes altogether)
So we can have all the same issues we had before and why they moved away from chromosome testing in the 90s....
Out of curiosity, what are those? I don’t have much prior knowledge of this
The solution for the Trans and DSD issues is the same, and Great Britain Triathlon has figured it out.
One division for XX human beings and another Open Division for everyone else.
It ain't complicated.
The thing is, we need to stop referring to gender, which can be chosen or misidentified, and use chromosomes as the basis for assignment to a division.
So XX male syndrome can compete in the women's division?
But anyway, just my thoughts as a layperson: why doesn't every athlete gets Karyotyped, and a sex hormone-binding globulin test to measure androgen sensitivity. Testing shouldn't be only for athletes who are put on notice based on profiling. And no need to ban CAIS women just for their karyotype, right? Otherwise you would have to let XX male syndrome individuals compete as women (with a full beard, penis and testicles) just because they're XX.
Testosterone alone isn't a good measure unless you also have a reliable way of testing androgen sensitivity. If you limit the T levels of those athletes who are significantly insensitive to testosterone, they could end up being disadvantaged beyond typical biological women.
Also, WA can't continue to protect field athletes if they eventually want to restrict all track athletes. I know no one cares about the image of field, but you can't be hypocritical just because track is more glamorous.
Just to throw a spanner in the works, I wonder if there are any 'undetected' DSD athletes who already lowered their T levels in order to compete? We wouldn't find out, especially if they are phenotypically female and from say Jamaica or US.
