Also, in the case of the transathlete, those in power are effectively saying, “I know you say you are female, but we disagree with your self identity, so you can’t play.”(quote)
They aren't saying that. They are saying that they respect the trans-athletes self-identity but their participation in female sports is unfair because of the biological advantages they have by virtue of being male. You misrepresent this either because it doesn't suit your agenda or you simply cannot grasp it.
Read back through all the pages of this thread and count how many times people have referred to transwomen as “males, biological males, guys, boys, and dudes”
You’re kidding yourself if you think people like Deno are saying “We respect transathletes’ self identities.”
You have shifted your own goal posts to suit: you referred to the powers-that-be in sports; they are not the random opinions on this thread.
My wife's cousin is the head of endocrinology at a very well known university medical center. He thinks that quite a few trans people have mental health problems - and this is not an invitation to be judgmental - and that mental health treatment is essential. He dislikes surgical or hormonal intervention at a young age because his research shows that the patients after are no happier than before, and in some cases, end up having even more issues because of a later desire to detransition. His background is interesting and instructive. He has dealt with parents with boys who will turn out to be 5"4, and who want medical or hormanal intervention to make the boys grow taller. He has had parents insist on leg stretching procedures (only can be done in certain jurisdictions). He finds that in these situations that there is little concern for the boys' health, as he rightly points out that the focus should be on making them happy and mentally sound. 5"4 is ok, just as is having feelings about gender identity. This stance flies in the face of current activists who use the threat of suicide to justify early medical intervention, but this doesn't strike me as a foundation for solid mental health. If someone has mental health challenges, or has suicidal ideation, we need to be compassionate and treat them from a mental health perspective as best we can. I am not sure that permitting trans athletes to compete in the women's division deserves a high priority - mental health does, though. I might add have come across a few trans people who made hormonal or surgical trans decisions well into their adult lives. They tend to be happy and well adjusted, albeit conceding that they had difficulties along the way. They are not large in number, but they do deserve respect and dignity.
Megan Rapinoe is an interesting person. Her brother - the very guy who got her into soccer - is a lifelong addict and has spent decades in jail. He also was or a white supremacist, complete with offensive racial tattoos (although he claims now to be reformed). So it doesn't surprise me that Rapinoe, although in no way afflicted with any of her brother's problems and from a personal day to day perspective likely a good person, is oppositional and defiant on any number of matters. Of course, one never can know, but after reading about her brother, who she loved dearly as a child, I have some sympathy for her - not that all of her positions are correct or are useful, but hers has been a road I would not have wanted to follow. In this vein I am surprised she is taking the position that the matter of XY males in athletics should be minimized, because she above all else should know the issue of mental health challenges, which should remain paramount.
This is quite fascinating. The parents of 5-4 boys wanting medical intervention is surely a projection of their insecurities onto their sons; I have no other way to read that scenario. I can't imagine it being common to have it go the other way, that a kid has insecurities (as all kids do) and his first thought is to ask his parents to procure strange or unsafe medical intervention for him.
Ultimately, you're right. If someone is thinking of suicide, that's got to be emergency A-1 for their caregivers. That's why I find it so disgusting to hear people say "let them into girls sports or they'll commit suicide." There's already a major problem with them if they're that close to suicide, and affirming them in the short term is only kicking the can down the road. Wait until they are adults, where even in our current era, people generally don't just affirm your every whim or go out of their way to make you happy and functional -- if someone says "no" to them then, and they weren't helped/taught mental strength as minors, what will they do then?
Just ignore Jerred. This has been a pretty good conversation with points made on each side. Then there's Jerred, just talking about smart he is, calling people names, accusing people of lying (but not specifying what the lies were), etc. His posts could be wiped away from this thread and nothing of value would be lost from the overall conversation.
You are lying about hordes of people threatening suicide if they cannot be on a sports team. What a POS you are.
My wife's cousin is the head of endocrinology at a very well known university medical center. He thinks that quite a few trans people have mental health problems - and this is not an invitation to be judgmental - and that mental health treatment is essential. He dislikes surgical or hormonal intervention at a young age because his research shows that the patients after are no happier than before, and in some cases, end up having even more issues because of a later desire to detransition. His background is interesting and instructive. He has dealt with parents with boys who will turn out to be 5"4, and who want medical or hormanal intervention to make the boys grow taller. He has had parents insist on leg stretching procedures (only can be done in certain jurisdictions). He finds that in these situations that there is little concern for the boys' health, as he rightly points out that the focus should be on making them happy and mentally sound. 5"4 is ok, just as is having feelings about gender identity. This stance flies in the face of current activists who use the threat of suicide to justify early medical intervention, but this doesn't strike me as a foundation for solid mental health. If someone has mental health challenges, or has suicidal ideation, we need to be compassionate and treat them from a mental health perspective as best we can. I am not sure that permitting trans athletes to compete in the women's division deserves a high priority - mental health does, though. I might add have come across a few trans people who made hormonal or surgical trans decisions well into their adult lives. They tend to be happy and well adjusted, albeit conceding that they had difficulties along the way. They are not large in number, but they do deserve respect and dignity.
Megan Rapinoe is an interesting person. Her brother - the very guy who got her into soccer - is a lifelong addict and has spent decades in jail. He also was or a white supremacist, complete with offensive racial tattoos (although he claims now to be reformed). So it doesn't surprise me that Rapinoe, although in no way afflicted with any of her brother's problems and from a personal day to day perspective likely a good person, is oppositional and defiant on any number of matters. Of course, one never can know, but after reading about her brother, who she loved dearly as a child, I have some sympathy for her - not that all of her positions are correct or are useful, but hers has been a road I would not have wanted to follow. In this vein I am surprised she is taking the position that the matter of XY males in athletics should be minimized, because she above all else should know the issue of mental health challenges, which should remain paramount.
This is quite fascinating. The parents of 5-4 boys wanting medical intervention is surely a projection of their insecurities onto their sons; I have no other way to read that scenario. I can't imagine it being common to have it go the other way, that a kid has insecurities (as all kids do) and his first thought is to ask his parents to procure strange or unsafe medical intervention for him.
Ultimately, you're right. If someone is thinking of suicide, that's got to be emergency A-1 for their caregivers. That's why I find it so disgusting to hear people say "let them into girls sports or they'll commit suicide." There's already a major problem with them if they're that close to suicide, and affirming them in the short term is only kicking the can down the road. Wait until they are adults, where even in our current era, people generally don't just affirm your every whim or go out of their way to make you happy and functional -- if someone says "no" to them then, and they weren't helped/taught mental strength as minors, what will they do then?
Your argument justified oppression of blacks and homosexuality too. You morons never can understand what you are saying.
You said that activists claim there will be hordes of suicides. Quit lying.
Megan Rapinoe literally says as much; she talks about the rates of trans suicide as the main reason to let trans girls into girls sports. The "trans child or dead child" line is pretty common in trans discourse. "Literally killing us" is too. This will be my last response to you. I'm sure you'll say something like, that proves you won and I can't handle your superior intellect, but you can believe that all you want and it won't ruin my day.
So you are trans gender? It would seem to follow. Being naturally, faster, fitter and stronger doesn't count as unfair advantage if you are the same sex.
You again just revealed how stupid you are. It is unfair that I am smarter than you. It is unfair if one is naturally more gifted in athletics than another. You really are too stupid to recognize this? It is unfair that you have a lousy personality. I am shocked that you cannot grasp this.
Unfortunately your assertion about your intellectual superiority completely undercuts your argument about unfair advantage. You show you have none. Fairness in sport does not require equal abilities - someone had to come first - but not abilities that are solely the product of being of a different sex (or, in some cases, age or weight). I would strongly urge you to avoid any form of intellectual competition.
Read back through all the pages of this thread and count how many times people have referred to transwomen as “males, biological males, guys, boys, and dudes”
You’re kidding yourself if you think people like Deno are saying “We respect transathletes’ self identities.”
You have shifted your own goal posts to suit: you referred to the powers-that-be in sports; they are not the random opinions on this thread.
Oh believe me, I have heard worse things from the powers-that-be than I have seen on this thread. No goal post moving needed. Have you ever been to a school board meeting where this stuff is brought up?
you are the person who made up this mythical, confused individual who is pro-trans rights except for the right to play volleyball. That person does not exist.
You again just revealed how stupid you are. It is unfair that I am smarter than you. It is unfair if one is naturally more gifted in athletics than another. You really are too stupid to recognize this? It is unfair that you have a lousy personality. I am shocked that you cannot grasp this.
Unfortunately your assertion about your intellectual superiority completely undercuts your argument about unfair advantage. You show you have none. Fairness in sport does not require equal abilities - someone had to come first - but not abilities that are solely the product of being of a different sex (or, in some cases, age or weight). I would strongly urge you to avoid any form of intellectual competition.
Again your reply is so weak as to be laughable. I have an unfair advantage in debate with you. Does that mean I should be disqualified? You have to understand that unfairness is the very nature of life. It is amazing you cannot grasp this. Is it unfair that most people do not like you? I think it is is but it is reality.
You again just revealed how stupid you are. It is unfair that I am smarter than you. It is unfair if one is naturally more gifted in athletics than another. You really are too stupid to recognize this? It is unfair that you have a lousy personality. I am shocked that you cannot grasp this.
Fairness in sport does not require equal abilities
You have just made my case and lost yours. Thank you.
I agree 100%. Trans activists always jump directly to "they will kill themselves if you don't!" no matter what concession they are demanding we give them. Look in on the arguments over trans issues and you will see endless variations of "if your child says they're trans, you have two choices: (1) have a trans child, or (2) have a dead child." My assumption if a trans person kills themselves is that they were in such a bad place that changing genders wasn't enough, that transitioning was merely one expression or facet of a whole suite of mental issues -- but that's only my best guess as a layman. More to the point, I think it's a BS move activists make, to try and guilt others into thinking that if we say no to any of their demands, blood is on our hands. Maybe kids' mental states will improve if we teach them that some things aren't fair, such as, boys-to-girls can't play girls sports. The activists already accept that life isn't fair, because they want us to take that view and force it on girls by accepting some boys-to-girls into girls sports. We'd just be arguing with them over the best definition of fairness, but that would be a major improvement over the current state of the argument, in which they try to frame things as "give them everything they want or it's your fault they killed themselves!!!"
It’s definitely a weak argument to claim that being allowed to compete or not on a team is the make or break reason somebody would choose to harm themselves. At the same time, there’s no doubt that trans people overall suffer more work place discrimination, bullying, physical and sexual violence, depression, anxiety and self harm than others. Trying to mitigate this where we can is all about being an empathic society. Yes, it’s a balancing act against the interests of others. I hate that everybody stakes out such rigid and absolute positions. I remember reading about the law passed in Utah banning trans participation in HS sports. As it turned out that law only applied to one or two trans female athletes across the entire state. You don’t think that would mess with your mind as a high school kid?
I think trans kids are fine in sports through high school. Yes, it would suck as a girl to always get beaten in XC and track by a trans girl. But if you cut it off at HS, it would not affect the recruiting process and biological girls will be looked at for recruitment and moving on to college athletics. Through HS, there is no money or career on the line. After that, college and pro careers are on the line.
You said that activists claim there will be hordes of suicides. Quit lying.
Megan Rapinoe literally says as much; she talks about the rates of trans suicide as the main reason to let trans girls into girls sports. The "trans child or dead child" line is pretty common in trans discourse. "Literally killing us" is too. This will be my last response to you. I'm sure you'll say something like, that proves you won and I can't handle your superior intellect, but you can believe that all you want and it won't ruin my day.
No she didn't. She literally took sports out of the equation.
I agree 100%. Trans activists always jump directly to "they will kill themselves if you don't!" no matter what concession they are demanding we give them. Look in on the arguments over trans issues and you will see endless variations of "if your child says they're trans, you have two choices: (1) have a trans child, or (2) have a dead child." My assumption if a trans person kills themselves is that they were in such a bad place that changing genders wasn't enough, that transitioning was merely one expression or facet of a whole suite of mental issues -- but that's only my best guess as a layman. More to the point, I think it's a BS move activists make, to try and guilt others into thinking that if we say no to any of their demands, blood is on our hands. Maybe kids' mental states will improve if we teach them that some things aren't fair, such as, boys-to-girls can't play girls sports. The activists already accept that life isn't fair, because they want us to take that view and force it on girls by accepting some boys-to-girls into girls sports. We'd just be arguing with them over the best definition of fairness, but that would be a major improvement over the current state of the argument, in which they try to frame things as "give them everything they want or it's your fault they killed themselves!!!"
It’s definitely a weak argument to claim that being allowed to compete or not on a team is the make or break reason somebody would choose to harm themselves. At the same time, there’s no doubt that trans people overall suffer more work place discrimination, bullying, physical and sexual violence, depression, anxiety and self harm than others. Trying to mitigate this where we can is all about being an empathic society. Yes, it’s a balancing act against the interests of others. I hate that everybody stakes out such rigid and absolute positions. I remember reading about the law passed in Utah banning trans participation in HS sports. As it turned out that law only applied to one or two trans female athletes across the entire state. You don’t think that would mess with your mind as a high school kid?
What you are missing is it's never about an individual when talking team sports. All that matters is the team needs. So what if you don't like something, it simply doesn't matter.
A trans person needs to be realize go ahead be your trans self but yiu cannot compete in female sports because you aren't a female.
I agree 100%. Trans activists always jump directly to "they will kill themselves if you don't!" no matter what concession they are demanding we give them. Look in on the arguments over trans issues and you will see endless variations of "if your child says they're trans, you have two choices: (1) have a trans child, or (2) have a dead child." My assumption if a trans person kills themselves is that they were in such a bad place that changing genders wasn't enough, that transitioning was merely one expression or facet of a whole suite of mental issues -- but that's only my best guess as a layman. More to the point, I think it's a BS move activists make, to try and guilt others into thinking that if we say no to any of their demands, blood is on our hands. Maybe kids' mental states will improve if we teach them that some things aren't fair, such as, boys-to-girls can't play girls sports. The activists already accept that life isn't fair, because they want us to take that view and force it on girls by accepting some boys-to-girls into girls sports. We'd just be arguing with them over the best definition of fairness, but that would be a major improvement over the current state of the argument, in which they try to frame things as "give them everything they want or it's your fault they killed themselves!!!"
It’s definitely a weak argument to claim that being allowed to compete or not on a team is the make or break reason somebody would choose to harm themselves. At the same time, there’s no doubt that trans people overall suffer more work place discrimination, bullying, physical and sexual violence, depression, anxiety and self harm than others. Trying to mitigate this where we can is all about being an empathic society. Yes, it’s a balancing act against the interests of others. I hate that everybody stakes out such rigid and absolute positions. I remember reading about the law passed in Utah banning trans participation in HS sports. As it turned out that law only applied to one or two trans female athletes across the entire state. You don’t think that would mess with your mind as a high school kid?
I certainly see what you're saying here, especially about it requiring balancing act. On exactly that point, I would frame the Utah law a little differently: it also applied to anyone those trans girls would be likely to play with or against in those sports, who would be impacted by the presence of the trans girls. I would also suggest that those other areas where trans people face discrimination that you mention, like in the workplace, would be a better area to mitigate harm and improve trans people's mental health than in sports. In the workplace in nearly all professions, men and women can compete on an equal playing field (i.e., what advantage does a man or woman have over the other in anything from brain surgery to delivering mail to flipping burgers to high finance? None...), and so if trans people feel discriminated against at work, there is no justification, no balance of harms argument, it's just discrimination if it can be proved. If a trans person can out-teach and out-coach me, they're just better than me at what I do and can have my jobs, because there isn't men's teaching and women's teaching, just teaching. There's a lot we could do better in the workplace, or in school for the younger trans people, that would go farther than anything we could do in sports, most especially because the balancing of trans interests against female interests is not an issue like it is in sports.
You have shifted your own goal posts to suit: you referred to the powers-that-be in sports; they are not the random opinions on this thread.
Oh believe me, I have heard worse things from the powers-that-be than I have seen on this thread. No goal post moving needed. Have you ever been to a school board meeting where this stuff is brought up?
you are the person who made up this mythical, confused individual who is pro-trans rights except for the right to play volleyball. That person does not exist.
For the most part those who truly care about trans rights, but are just concerned about this carve out related to athletics, seem few in number on the LRC boards it seems. these boards either. We have plenty of posters that willfully use male pronouns to refer to trans female athletes, or call them guys, or label them narcissists or psychos. Lots of people using sexual predator imagery when referring to trans females in general. Hard not to conclude there is more trans hate and transphobia than just people concerned about the optimal application of Title IX as it pertains to this issue.
I certainly see what you're saying here, especially about it requiring balancing act. On exactly that point, I would frame the Utah law a little differently: it also applied to anyone those trans girls would be likely to play with or against in those sports, who would be impacted by the presence of the trans girls. I would also suggest that those other areas where trans people face discrimination that you mention, like in the workplace, would be a better area to mitigate harm and improve trans people's mental health than in sports. In the workplace in nearly all professions, men and women can compete on an equal playing field (i.e., what advantage does a man or woman have over the other in anything from brain surgery to delivering mail to flipping burgers to high finance? None...), and so if trans people feel discriminated against at work, there is no justification, no balance of harms argument, it's just discrimination if it can be proved. If a trans person can out-teach and out-coach me, they're just better than me at what I do and can have my jobs, because there isn't men's teaching and women's teaching, just teaching. There's a lot we could do better in the workplace, or in school for the younger trans people, that would go farther than anything we could do in sports, most especially because the balancing of trans interests against female interests is not an issue like it is in sports.
I agree with you 100%. Sports is not most important and it cuts both ways. See my next post, I do think there’s a lot of rhetoric on these boards that can only be construed as hate or phobia.
Megan Rapinoe literally says as much; she talks about the rates of trans suicide as the main reason to let trans girls into girls sports. The "trans child or dead child" line is pretty common in trans discourse. "Literally killing us" is too. This will be my last response to you. I'm sure you'll say something like, that proves you won and I can't handle your superior intellect, but you can believe that all you want and it won't ruin my day.
No she didn't. She literally took sports out of the equation.
Rapinoe: “We’re talking about people’s lives. We’re talking about the entire state government coming down on one child in some states, three children in some states. They are committing suicide, because they are being told that they’re gross and different and evil and sinful and they can’t play sports with their friends that they grew up with. Not to mention trying to take away health care. I think it’s monstrous.”
I'll grant she never said "they'll kill themselves if we don't let them play sports, and for no other reason," but I never claimed she said that. She definitely did not take sports out of the equation, she very specifically left sports in the equation. And she absolutely used the common argument of citing trans suicide as a reason to let them do whatever she's advocating for, which is, in fact, play sports with girls in this case.