Katir stays HOT - 7:27.64 Spanish national record for 3000.

AtletaEspanolo wrote:

Ya know what?...in Spain biological passport it's not legal.

Really? Is it a medical privacy thing? Interesting if true.

AtletaEspanolo wrote:

Ya know what?...in Spain biological passport it's not legal.

Well that would surely add some weight to this "Spanish national record" phrasing of Katir's accomplishment.

He wont be stupid enough to dope now unless he / his doctor knows whatever he's taking wont be detectable in his system by race end. The 'damage' as you will is done. The only chance he will get pinged is if his ABP shows any off scores ... come on Fancy Bears we need you :)

PS. @Rojo you might as well merge this one in to the other thread about Katir doping too as inevitably this is where it has gone ...

drtoneill wrote:

come on Fancy Bears we need you :)

The problem is Fancy Bear does not know someone's nationality or skin color LOL.

Katie is running a lot of competitions. I am more warry of doping groups Like BTC. They have known dopers and mostly dont race all year to microdose without Tests.

drtoneill wrote:

He wont be stupid enough to dope now unless he / his doctor knows whatever he's taking wont be detectable in his system by race end. The 'damage' as you will is done. The only chance he will get pinged is if his ABP shows any off scores ... come on Fancy Bears we need you :)

Did you not see the post 3 above yours claiming the ABP is not used in Spain?

Did you not see that Katir is conspicuously absent from any international testing pool?

Katir and his people probably experimented with dosages over the pandemic. Once quantified, dude probably went buck wild after Indoor World Champs (early March) until reemerging back up on the outdoor scene in late May. What is that a solid 6-7 weeks to cycle dope and train very hard without pesky testing before suddenly becoming a triple national record holder and medal threat?

If he has any ABP entries at all his baseline is going to be dope spiked. Now all he has to do is not get caught mainlining blood bags (like a predecessor under his current agent) or shooting CERA, which probably clears the system quite fast. Expert timing no doubt.

stays hot or pisses hot?

Yes, I saw the post about ABP possibly not being used in Spain. It certainly was used in Spain as there have been multiple cases of Spanish athletes getting caught with it. So has this changed? Is no ABP on Spanish athletes confirmed?

And not being in the AIU RTP for OOC tests is pretty damning. He will still get in-competition tested and I'd assume WADA might have made some recent OOC tests against him. But it's all too late as you say.

drtoneill wrote:

Yes, I saw the post about ABP possibly not being used in Spain. It certainly was used in Spain as there have been multiple cases of Spanish athletes getting caught with it. So has this changed? Is no ABP on Spanish athletes confirmed?

And not being in the AIU RTP for OOC tests is pretty damning. He will still get in-competition tested and I'd assume WADA might have made some recent OOC tests against him. But it's all too late as you say.

Sounds like bs to me. Even if there was such a law it would only apply inside Spain and iaaf would simply block the athletes. Katir has raced outside Spain this year even if he was under the radar in 2020.

I dont have Instagram account (nor FB) but I know how to infiltrate to it with just Chrome.

drtoneill wrote:

Yes, I saw the post about ABP possibly not being used in Spain. It certainly was used in Spain as there have been multiple cases of Spanish athletes getting caught with it. So has this changed? Is no ABP on Spanish athletes confirmed?

And not being in the AIU RTP for OOC tests is pretty damning. He will still get in-competition tested and I'd assume WADA might have made some recent OOC tests against him. But it's all too late as you say.

Spanish law requires that any process leading to sanctions also have guarantees and protections for the accused. The Spanish law that in 2017 tried to bring Spanish doping rules in line with international ones depended on a future law that would establish such guarantees and protections for those accused on the basis of the biological passport; that future law was never passed. The courts don't understand sport and don't care, what they care about is whether the rules are followed. When no rules have been made to control X, they won't validate sanctions based on X.

Essentially the same issue makes it hard to expel a student from the university for plagiarism (the difference being that in that context no one even bothers trying).

The Spanish sporting authorities are trying to implement adequate doping controls. They find the situation embarassing. But when their sanctions are challenged the courts often don't uphold the sanctions for essentially formal reasons - such as inadequacy in a procedural sense of the process leading to the sanctions. For those accustomed to US or English law this point can be hard to understand, but it should make immediate sense to French and Italians.

In still plainer terms: in Spanish law the law has to say X is probative of doping and proof of X is established in the following way, via the following procedure, and can be contested in the following way, via the following procedure. The law currently doesn't do that vis-a-vis X = biological passport.

Apparently in World Athletics twitter they delete all posts containing doping accusations or they put some filter for that.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Katir improved 8 seconds over the 1500m inside a year, from 3.36 to 3.28. That would be equivalent to a 3.32 runner dropping to 3.24. Of course he's doping.

No, from 3.36 to 3.28 is not at all equivalent to from 3.32 to 3.24. Obviously. 3.26 to 3.18 also is harder, or don't you think, Armstronisdead?

I'm sorry, I really tied to follow that description kumquat but I cant. Likewise I tried to understand the Salas case but that seems to have ruled in ABPs favour?

I cant see how Spanish law could have any bearing on the ABPs applicability outside of Spain?

drtoneill wrote:

I'm sorry, I really tied to follow that description kumquat but I cant. Likewise I tried to understand the Salas case but that seems to have ruled in ABPs favour?

I cant see how Spanish law could have any bearing on the ABPs applicability outside of Spain?

I don't know all the ins and outs, but Spanish law can't have any bearing on applicability outside of Spain. But it can have applicability on the sanctions imposed by Spanish sports authorities. If international sanctions are administered via national sporting authorities, then there can be difficulties. Or if the international body is formally constituted in a way that makes its administrative decisions subject to Spanish law (not generally the case).

In practice lots of detection occurs at the national level, so is subject to sanction by national authorities. If they can't sanction, then a known doper can still compete internationally, although when he does so he is subject to sanctions if caught.

drtoneill wrote:

I cant see how Spanish law could have any bearing on the ABPs applicability outside of Spain?

This will depend on the specifics of the case. In particular, where the body attempting to apply sanctions is legally constituted, and whether it is private, public, or something in between. The problem is harmonizing international rules with national laws. In Spain the law cares a lot about procedure and protecting the accused. This originates partly in a reaction to the past abuses of a dictatorship, partly in the nature and premises of the legal system.

There is much less in the way of administrative rule making than there is in a country like the US. In the US, Congress sets up an agency and gives it power to regulate, as it sees fit, via rules that the agency itself promulgates. In Spain an agency is established and regulate according to the powers given it statutorily in the law - it generally has much more limited authority to make its own rules, except in the strict sense of literally implementing statutory obligations.

This means that if the world antidoping agency says we are going to start using the ABP to check for doping, in the US the corresponding agency just does the same, whereas in Spain a new law is required that enables the relevant authorities to utilize the ABP and describes all the procedures that have to be followed when it is used . This may or may not be a priority for the current government, and even in the best of situations getting a law through can take a few years.

Spain tried with its 2017 law, but apparently it wasn't well written technically, at least it didn't cover some relevant circumstances adequately. There's a draft law to remedy the situation, but it's not yet been passed, and with covid probably is not a priority.