Elias Ngeny WL 1:43.84 (previous best 1:49)

restrunner wrote:

All of Renato's explanations sound absolutely plausible to me. I appreciate a lot all his effort on this board and I trust him until it's proved otherwise.

Renato Canova wrote:

But, how explained before, everything, at top level, comes from the coach. And I know the behavior of Kenyan coaches : somebody (such as Patrick Sang or Brother Colm) are also EDUCATORS for all the situations of life, and their athletes are clean, because the ethic is the first step in their evolution

Renato Canova wrote:

We need to look at FACTS. Facts are :

1- Mathew Kisorio, Rita Jeptoo, Jemima Sumgong, Kipyegon Bett, maybe Asbel Kiprop, ran fast taking EPO. This is not opinion, but FACT.

2- But they ran FASTER when FAR from the certainty of doping. NEVER those athletes, when caught for doping, were close their PB. This is another FACT.

casual obsever wrote:

restrunner wrote:

All of Renato's explanations sound absolutely plausible to me. I appreciate a lot all his effort on this board and I trust him until it's proved otherwise.

At best, he is an incorrigible optimist, always explaining performance jumps with improved training (Farah is another example).

And sometimes evidently too optimistic:

Renato Canova wrote:

But, how explained before, everything, at top level, comes from the coach. And I know the behavior of Kenyan coaches : somebody (such as Patrick Sang or Brother Colm) are also EDUCATORS for all the situations of life, and their athletes are clean, because the ethic is the first step in their evolution

Fact: Sang's Rutto was caught doping and subsequently banned.

And sometimes evidently wrong:

Renato Canova wrote:

We need to look at FACTS. Facts are :

1- Mathew Kisorio, Rita Jeptoo, Jemima Sumgong, Kipyegon Bett, maybe Asbel Kiprop, ran fast taking EPO. This is not opinion, but FACT.

2- But they ran FASTER when FAR from the certainty of doping. NEVER those athletes, when caught for doping, were close their PB. This is another FACT.

Fact: Jeptoo ran her PR when doped. At age 33, ten years after her first international win, breaking the course record in Boston without a tailwind.

Renato Canova wrote:

I explained what happened in 1998 – 1999 with Kennedy Kimw3etich, as example of what can happen in Kenya.

He was a physical trainer in Army, of course doing a lot of physical activity, but never thinking to run in some competition. He was forced to compete for the first time in his life, for representing is brigade in the Army Championships.

I saw him winning the Army Champs in April with 1’49”, and was impressed by his action.

Wilson Boit Kipketer introduced him to me. I started to coach him, and in two months he started to compete managed by Gianni Demadonna.

Here can find his first professional season (1998).

800m

1:45.1hA PB 3h1 NC Nairobi 4 Jul

1:45.3hA 1 NC Nairobi 4 Jul

1:45.14 PB 2 Vittel Villeneuve d'Ascq 11 Jul

1:45.09 PB 3 Nikaïa Nice 16 Jul

1:43.03 PB (3) 2 LG Stuttgart 19 Jul

1:47.85 8 Herc Monaco 8 Aug

1:46.25 9 WK Zürich 12 Aug

1:47.52 6 Athletissima Lausanne 25 Aug

1:48.04 9 VD Bruxelles 28 Aug

1:45.60 6 Guidobaldi Rieti 30 Aug

1:48.48 1h5 CWG Kuala Lumpur 17 Sep

1:47.12 2s1 CWG Kuala Lumpur 18 Sep

1:48.13 8 CWG Kuala Lumpur 19 Sep

And here can find his second professional season (1999).800m

1:46.51i PB (12) 3 Sparkassen Stuttgart 7 Feb

1:49.40i 3 Brogalan Malmö/A 10 Feb

1:47.91i 3 Flanders Gent 19 Feb

1:49.11i 6 Ricoh Stockholm/G 25 Feb

1:48.11i 1 Volksbanken Sindelfingen 28 Feb

1:48.13 3h5 WC Maebashi 5 Mar

1:50.18i 6s3 WC Maebashi 6 Mar

1:46.36 1 GP Rio de Janeiro 25 Apr

1:44.76 2 GP Doha 13 May

1:47.50 1 Vard Réthimno 28 May

1:45.6hA 1 ArmyC Nairobi 5 Jun

1:46.0hA 1h1 NC Nairobi 24 Jun

1:45.6hA 1s1 NC Nairobi 25 Jun

1:46.0hA 2 NC Nairobi 26 Jun

1:43.98 (10) 3 Bislett Oslo 30 Jun

1:44.13 2 Athletissima Lausanne 2 Jul

1:44.47 5 GGala Roma 7 Jul

2:13.56 (1000m) 2 Nikaia Nice 17 Jul

1:47.84 8 Golden Paris 21 Jul

1:44.31 6 Herculis Monaco 4 Aug

1:45.28 3 ASV Köln 8 Aug

1:44.77 7 WK Zürich 11 Aug

1:48.45 2h4 WC Sevilla 26 Aug

1:45.67 4s2 WC Sevilla 27 Aug

1:46.27 7 WC Sevilla 29 Aug

1:46.30 10 ISTAF Berlin 7 Sep

1:44.96 6 GPF München 11 Sep

1:46.87A 2s1 AAG Johannesburg 15 Sep

1:46.24A 5 AAG Johannesburg 16 Sep

In 2 years, an athlete WITHOUT ANY BACKGROUND ran 2 times under 1'44", 8 times under 1'45", 16 times under 1'46", plus once 1000m in 2'13"56 (still the performance number 6 all-time).

According to your ideas, this athlete didn’t have any background, because officially never competed before.

But, in reality, he had a lot of not specific training, that made him very fit and ready for starting specific training, allowing him to improve dramatically in very short time.

Ngeny finished University in June 2020, and immediately after started to train seriously. During 2020, because of the pandemic, he never compited in 800m (only one race of 1500m for the University, running 3’47”6). So, starting from a 3’47”6 practically without training, he had more than one year for training in professional way (12 sessions per week vs/ 2 session, possibility of good physiotherapic assistance, teammate of top level for training), and of course his improvement was very strong.

You can’t say he improved from 1’49” to 1’43” in one year. If he could have had the opportunity to run with continuity (like happens in Europe and US), and his improvement was about 3” per year through several competitions (for example, 1’47”6 then 1’46”9 then 1’46”2 then, in Europe 1’45”8, this means 3”6 second of improvement from 2019 till 2020 in one year, seeming absolutely natural), and this year could have started with 1’45”2 in March, 1’44”5 in April and finally the current PB, nobody had any reason for being suspicious.

But, unfortunately, Kenya is not UK and is not US, and the situations are not the same.

You can have your ideas, but can’t give the right signification to the REAL examples that I showed you.

restrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

That Ngeny is quite possibly one of them.

I have not asked you.

This "quite possibly" is just your estimation. What does this mean at all? If you say, Ngeny is a doper, I'm 80% sure about this? And now? He then is an 80% doper?

And what if others estimate the possibility completely different to you? If they say Ngeny is quite possibly clean?

From just this laughable infos about his progression which we have it's just not possible to evaluate if he is a doper or not. But then, for sure, I accept the much deeper insight given by Renato who knows 10 times as much about the subject as all of us together - and I have no reason for not believing him. He also can't know the answer (only Ngeny himself and maybe only 1 or 2 others know it for 100%) but I give his words 1000 times as much value as yours, and some notorious liar and completely uninformed stupid person like your friend Coevett.

At the moment, for me Ngeny is just a great talent who started very late with some professional training and I'm looking forward if he can improve further.

In five days it's 40 years since Sebastian Coe run over two seconds faster in a not perfect race than Ngeny did last week. And for you Ngeny's performance almost certainly is illegitimate? Are you indoktrinated by Coevett?

Armstronglivs wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

Ngeny is quite possible an athlete of great talent who didn't train till one year ago.

And, about Kimwetich : you really speaks without knowing anything. Kimwetich was with me in St. Moritz all the training period (you can see how many competitions he did, and of course competing every 3-5 days, always in Europe, he had to train in the same continent), was a wonderful person, I was in the same apartment for about one month together with Christopher Koskei, Mark Bett, Wilson Boit Kipketer, Paul Kosgei and the poor David Lelei, and that's the reason because I'm sure 100% all these athletes never used any medicine.

So, you (who never met anybody of them) thinks to know about that group of athletes more than who lived together in the same apartment for about 3 months ?

There were 9 months in the year when you weren't living with them.

Despite being repeatedly asked, you are still unable to say what level of improvement would cause suspicion. You may be a distinguished coach, but, regrettably, you are also a doping denier.