Stockholm DL Live Discussion

Renato Canova wrote:

Warholm is the superior mind not because is European, but because what he did and he trained when very young. Starting with multiple events can give big advantage under some of the conditional qualities (like coordination, strength and mental endurance), and isn't frequent in Saudi Arabia (where Samba lived till when was 20 years old) and in US (in WYCh 2013, while Warholm won the title of Octathlon, Benjamin didn'r reach the final in 400 hs running 52"36 in semifinal). So, everybody can see the big difference among these athletes in their build-up : athletes from Norway are already "mentally" professional when still young (Jakob was already in real training when was 11 years old), while at the same age athletes like Samba and Benjamin (nobody of them is African...) are still running for fun, without a real plan for their future, and what are able to achieve is due to their "natural" talent, and not to their training.

So, the only consideration "pathetic" is what you wrote at the end of your post, not understanding the mean of what I wrote, and showing your specific ignorance about the athletes thinking they were African (Samba was born and lived in Saudi Arabia, and chose to represent Mauritania (his mom's Country) before changing to Qatar, while Benjamin was born in US, and represented Antilla, when Youth, while training and living in US).

Anonymous Bosch wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

Warholm is the superior mind not because is European, but because what he did and he trained when very young. Starting with multiple events can give big advantage under some of the conditional qualities (like coordination, strength and mental endurance), and isn't frequent in Saudi Arabia (where Samba lived till when was 20 years old) and in US (in WYCh 2013, while Warholm won the title of Octathlon, Benjamin didn'r reach the final in 400 hs running 52"36 in semifinal). So, everybody can see the big difference among these athletes in their build-up : athletes from Norway are already "mentally" professional when still young (Jakob was already in real training when was 11 years old), while at the same age athletes like Samba and Benjamin (nobody of them is African...) are still running for fun, without a real plan for their future, and what are able to achieve is due to their "natural" talent, and not to their training.

So, the only consideration "pathetic" is what you wrote at the end of your post, not understanding the mean of what I wrote, and showing your specific ignorance about the athletes thinking they were African (Samba was born and lived in Saudi Arabia, and chose to represent Mauritania (his mom's Country) before changing to Qatar, while Benjamin was born in US, and represented Antilla, when Youth, while training and living in US).

I’m with the critics here. You’re recycling dated racist beliefs whether you’re able to recognize and admit that or not.

Renato Canova wrote:

What Warholm has, better than Benjamin and Samba, is the aggressiveness. Benjamin and Samba seem to have more "natural" talent, but are more fragile physically and mentally, and of sure are weaker than Karsten under the aerobic point of view.

talents are talented wrote:

Lol. How did you arrive at the conclusion that Benjamin & Samba have more natural talent?

I don't think I'm wearing your glasses so maybe if you can help me see...

Runner10287 wrote:

He’s European. So he’s biased to the belief that Warholms Nordic make up is pure him mentally superior to the two of African descent who may posses superior physical gifts. But clearly are mentally inferior.

An a-hole wrote:

Where's Canova to tell us that he's not as "naturally" talented as Samba and Benjamin....

Renato Canova wrote:

Canova is here, for confirming that Warholm doesn't have the same "natural" talent of Samba and Benjamin for the event.

Warholm was World Champion, when Youth, of Octathon, and silver medal in European Junior Champs in Decathlon with more than 7700 points. As decathlete, Warholm had to train for 4-6 hours per day, building a mentality very much different from the mentality of athletes coming from sprint (such as Benjamin).

Warholm built his strength for hurdles through a lot of training including different events, and, under the mental point of view, learnt how not fearing any external situation : cold, hot, wind, noise, type of track, behavior of the other competitors. This is not what happens with Samba and Benjamin : they don't have the same physical efficiency ogf Karsten, and the same continuity and volume of training.

But there are no doubts that, looking at the basic specific talent required for 400m hurdles, both of them have something more, as morphology and as speed.

Warholm has ability to recover in very short time his maximal efforts, something built with years of big volume of training in different directions, and with the practice to compete in many events every time, because of his origin as decathlete , something of sure nor Samba neither Benjamin have.

wth wow wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

But there are no doubts that, looking at the basic specific talent required for 400m hurdles, both of them have something more, as morphology and as speed.

Ahhh, please explain this one. Especially speed. You do realize Warholm has a faster 200 PR than Samba right? And that he likely has a faster 400 flat in him at the moment than either one?

Morphology huh? Hehehe. You're certainly making it obvious as to where you are trying to go with this though.

Facts and Logic wrote:

All three are superbly talented, as all world class athletes are.

Warholm just ran 45.05 on tired legs. He's run 45.05 indoors as well. He may be the best 400m runner of the 3, (though 44.3 is nothing to snease at by Benjamin)

Warholm has an 100m PB of only 10.49, albiet from 2017 and he's clearly a much better athlete now, but Benjamin clearly has him beat in raw speed. But Warholm has the better speed endurance, as clearly demonstrated when he outran Benjamin in the last 100m when they both went under 47 last year. And while Benjamin's 200m PB is superior, Warholms indoor 200m is not to far behind...

All three of them work very hard, you have too if you want to compete over 400m... you have to if you want to be a world class athlete, the talent is a difference between them and the layman but to be competitive at the highest level of sport your mentality has to be superb. Why is Warholms just "better"?

Why is Samba supposedly a better, faster, athlete? His 200m PB is slower than Warholms (Warholms even run faster than Samba has outdoors indoors), their 400m PBs are about the same...

It's absolutely not clear that Samba and Benjamin have more speed when you watch them race... if anything Benjamin has the best hurdling technique of the 3, though all of them are good... Warholm goes out like a jet, often with a better start than Benjamin, the purest sprinter of the 3, and always out runs him on the home straight...

His decathlon experience may explain his endurance, but surely that also has to do with talent as well, it's not just like anyone can train like Kipchoge????

Their "morphology" is better?!?!??!!

Let's address the elephant in the room here. Samba and Benjamin are better natural talents because they are Africans, and Warholm is the superior mind because he is European...

Pathetic...

Renato Canova wrote:

Warholm is the superior mind not because is European, but because what he did and he trained when very young. Starting with multiple events can give big advantage under some of the conditional qualities (like coordination, strength and mental endurance), and isn't frequent in Saudi Arabia (where Samba lived till when was 20 years old) and in US (in WYCh 2013, while Warholm won the title of Octathlon, Benjamin didn'r reach the final in 400 hs running 52"36 in semifinal). So, everybody can see the big difference among these athletes in their build-up : athletes from Norway are already "mentally" professional when still young (Jakob was already in real training when was 11 years old), while at the same age athletes like Samba and Benjamin (nobody of them is African...) are still running for fun, without a real plan for their future, and what are able to achieve is due to their "natural" talent, and not to their training.

So, the only consideration "pathetic" is what you wrote at the end of your post, not understanding the mean of what I wrote, and showing your specific ignorance about the athletes thinking they were African (Samba was born and lived in Saudi Arabia, and chose to represent Mauritania (his mom's Country) before changing to Qatar, while Benjamin was born in US, and represented Antilla, when Youth, while training and living in US).

Anonymous Bosch wrote:

I’m with the critics here. You’re recycling dated racist beliefs whether you’re able to recognize and admit that or not.

An a-hole wrote:

Mr. Canova,

You have raised some good points about Warholm's decathlete background and how it may be aiding his incredible speed endurance.

Where people are taking issue is the points you are making simply to not match with your conclusion that Warholm must be the hardest worker of the 3 and that Samba and Benjamin are simply "more naturally talented"

Your rationale is simply that decathletes must have a better mentality, and since Warholm started from a young age and Samba and Benjamin didn't, that means that they are the better "natural" athletes and Warholm is less of a "natural" talent.

There are simply too many assumptions being made there. And personally I find it insulting to Samba and Benjamin to make such a suggestion, which clearly implies that they don't work as hard as Warholm and that they would surpass him if they did. Perhaps that was not your intent, but nevertheless what you have said clearly implies it.

As for the allegation of racism, it is hard to understand why your trying to rationalize how Warholm is an "inferior natural talent" compared to Samba and Warholm, and using phrases like "they have better morphology" does raise an eyebrow. Obviously Warholm is of an different race than Samba or Benjamin. Your conclusion is that the European athlete is better mentally but a lesser talent, and the Africans are better talents but worse mentally. Combined with your faulty reasoning it's not hard to see why some are connecting the dots and seeing racist overtones.

And your horrible attempt to deflect the allegations by focusing on nationality instead of race isn't helping your case.

An a-hole wrote:

Anonymous Bosch wrote:

I’m with the critics here. You’re recycling dated racist beliefs whether you’re able to recognize and admit that or not.

Mr. Canova,

You have raised some good points about Warholm's decathlete background and how it may be aiding his incredible speed endurance.

Where people are taking issue is the points you are making simply to not match with your conclusion that Warholm must be the hardest worker of the 3 and that Samba and Benjamin are simply "more naturally talented"

Your rationale is simply that decathletes must have a better mentality, and since Warholm started from a young age and Samba and Benjamin didn't, that means that they are the better "natural" athletes and Warholm is less of a "natural" talent.

There are simply too many assumptions being made there. And personally I find it insulting to Samba and Benjamin to make such a suggestion, which clearly implies that they don't work as hard as Warholm and that they would surpass him if they did. Perhaps that was not your intent, but nevertheless what you have said clearly implies it.

As for the allegation of racism, it is hard to understand why your trying to rationalize how Warholm is an "inferior natural talent" compared to Samba and Warholm, and using phrases like "they have better morphology" does raise an eyebrow. Obviously Warholm is of an different race than Samba or Benjamin. Your conclusion is that the European athlete is better mentally but a lesser talent, and the Africans are better talents but worse mentally. Combined with your faulty reasoning it's not hard to see why some are connecting the dots and seeing racist overtones.

And your horrible attempt to deflect the allegations by focusing on nationality instead of race isn't helping your case.

cmon man wrote:

An a-hole wrote:

Mr. Canova,

You have raised some good points about Warholm's decathlete background and how it may be aiding his incredible speed endurance.

Where people are taking issue is the points you are making simply to not match with your conclusion that Warholm must be the hardest worker of the 3 and that Samba and Benjamin are simply "more naturally talented"

Your rationale is simply that decathletes must have a better mentality, and since Warholm started from a young age and Samba and Benjamin didn't, that means that they are the better "natural" athletes and Warholm is less of a "natural" talent.

There are simply too many assumptions being made there. And personally I find it insulting to Samba and Benjamin to make such a suggestion, which clearly implies that they don't work as hard as Warholm and that they would surpass him if they did. Perhaps that was not your intent, but nevertheless what you have said clearly implies it.

As for the allegation of racism, it is hard to understand why your trying to rationalize how Warholm is an "inferior natural talent" compared to Samba and Warholm, and using phrases like "they have better morphology" does raise an eyebrow. Obviously Warholm is of an different race than Samba or Benjamin. Your conclusion is that the European athlete is better mentally but a lesser talent, and the Africans are better talents but worse mentally. Combined with your faulty reasoning it's not hard to see why some are connecting the dots and seeing racist overtones.

And your horrible attempt to deflect the allegations by focusing on nationality instead of race isn't helping your case.

Funny how you and the usual suspects agree with Canova when he claims the reason for so many doping tests in Kenya is their ignorance (of whereabouts obligations, what's in supplements etc.), yet only get upset when he implies a successful European runner must be a hard worker and mentally strong.

Funny how the usual suspects insist that African dominance in running is due to some natural advantage in talent and not doping, call anyone who disagrees a racist, but then when Canova suggests a European runner able to compete must have a mental strength rather than equal physical talent, that you claim he is a racist (and presumably like the Ingebrigtsens, Warholm must be doping according to you lot to explain his ability to compete).

Renato Canova wrote:

Warholm is the superior mind not because is European, but because what he did and he trained when very young. Starting with multiple events can give big advantage under some of the conditional qualities (like coordination, strength and mental endurance), and isn't frequent in Saudi Arabia (where Samba lived till when was 20 years old) and in US (in WYCh 2013, while Warholm won the title of Octathlon, Benjamin didn'r reach the final in 400 hs running 52"36 in semifinal). So, everybody can see the big difference among these athletes in their build-up : athletes from Norway are already "mentally" professional when still young (Jakob was already in real training when was 11 years old), while at the same age athletes like Samba and Benjamin (nobody of them is African...) are still running for fun, without a real plan for their future, and what are able to achieve is due to their "natural" talent, and not to their training.

So, the only consideration "pathetic" is what you wrote at the end of your post, not understanding the mean of what I wrote, and showing your specific ignorance about the athletes thinking they were African (Samba was born and lived in Saudi Arabia, and chose to represent Mauritania (his mom's Country) before changing to Qatar, while Benjamin was born in US, and represented Antilla, when Youth, while training and living in US).

Baard85 wrote:

Hi, first time poster here.

I have no athletic background or experience, so basically your average letsrun "expert".

My two cents on Warholm and the "racism" from mr. Canova.

No where can I find a hint of a Warholm is superior due to his skin color and origin from mr. Canovas posts. Of course, if you insist, and want to find racism you can interpret any text into having a racist subplot. What I read from the posts is that for a trained eye, Benjamin and Samba (who happen to have darker skin color) are more naturally talented then Warholm who happen to be "Caucasian". I do not have a trained eye, so I can't really tell, but even if they are more naturally gifted it is not a slight towards Benjamin or Samba, just a fact or in worst case an opinion.

Warholm and his coach have, if not said the same as mr. Canova directly, at least confirmed that due to his background in decathlon he is able to train hard for several hours each day (about 30 hour weeks - including breaks of course). He has also grown up in a part of Norway known for its rain and wind, and has been training outside in all kinds of weather since an early age. Knowing nothing of Sambas and Benjamins training facilities as youths this may all be irrelevant, but at least Warholm is used to "cold" and sub optimal track conditions and is consciously looking for mental advantages on race day, and especially in sub optimal conditions. As an example, he said after his indoors 400m tied European record in Glasgow that "everybody" knew and accepted that the track was slow. However, Warholm and his coach had a different approach:

"Slow track became fast track

They (Leif/coach and Warholm) started looking into the Glasgow track history. How the surface was. What has previously been run there. The track record belonged to indoor WC champ Pavel Maslák, who ran 46.02 in 2016. They asked other athletes about the track and got "slow track" as an answer.

- Leif, they say slow track, Warholm determined.

After having inspected the track and observed that it had wide curves and a special bounce, Alnes (coach) concluded:

- I have an opposite hypothesis: This is a fast track. It has a Mondo-surface, it has wide curves, and a special bounce. I think you are the worlds best to adept to the surface. The task is to get the bounce to play along with you and not fight you. You run with diesel-strides and that's good, because there's a slow bounce on the track. Use the first two laps to feel that the track is like a trampoline. If you, despite that approach, run slow, it may be that we are simply wrong."

- To Aftenposten, 3rd of May, 2019.

I have seen and read similar interviews talking about the London WC and other occasions where the weather or other conditions have not been the best. Another example of Warholms mindset and positive approach to running comes in an interview with Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet, in 2017:

Edwin Moses, when being asked about Warholm in 2017 said:

"400 meter hurdles is a difficult discipline. You are among other things, jumping over 10 hurdles. You can for example fall and hit one of them. You can also mess up the start, you can make errors between the hurdles. There are so many things that can go wrong, and they will go wrong, the legend determined with reference to 31 elements he believes can ruin the possibility to win 400 meter hurdles."

Warholm, confronted by Norwegian media about this replied:

"I think running is a very simple and ordinary thing, he told Dagbladets reporter John Rasmussen and added:

And I think we should keep it simple and ordinary. We shouldn't over analyse too much, but it is allowed to disagree with that.

- Moses talks a lot about experience. Do you thing analysis comes with age, replied Rassmussen:

- Perhaps. Or I will maintain that there are 31 things you can succeed at in stead of 31 things to fail at. That will be my strength."

This is the mentality mr. Canova is talking about, not a superior mind set due to race or skin colour, but an optimistic and easy going approach to training, running and competing. I know little or nothing of Benjamins or Sambas mental traits as there is little to find on the internet, so really its impossible to compare. But at least Warholm is very confident and has a very positive mind set, and is always looking for an edge and how to turn something negative to a positive.