This is literally a personality cult based on anecdotal n=1 experience. You guys thumb your nose up at the scientific discussion and consider it distracting, despite that if you paid attention, what people have been posting supports this style of training with actual evidence.
All the relevant information was included in post #9 and the thread should have ended there. The idea that VO2 max work isn't strictly necessary and you should try to stay under threshold isn't new and it predates Bakken, Kristoffer, Tinman, and Sirpoc. It's common sense, regardless of whether it's then obfuscated with lactate testing, stress/strain scores, interval design, and walls of text about training.
I'm going to take a break from this thread, it has become a circle jerk and all the wankery has left a bad taste in my mouth, regardless of if whether Lexel has been irritating about discussing the critical power/speed model and deserving of some amount of appraisal. No offense to Sirpoc, he is probably a very nice guy and he gives good information, but the reaction to it, you think it was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
The basic idea of this training was clear at the very beginning of this thread.
It is really hard to ruin a thread on side 58. How dumb are some guys here?
I agree, it is really fascinating a guy copies a training intervention from another guy, not even invented by his own, provides zero scientific background, because he knows very little to nothing about it, and people think he is the master of the training universe.
How dump the society is getting? People can be easily manipulated, quite shocking.
Don't let you intimidate.
Suckers: Downvote this to your earliest convenience!
Sirpoc, Lexel and many here have contributed greatly. They aren't doing this for free.
Even if you disagree with Lexel (collective you) he's been at least thorough in his discussion and is civil to other. The Wizard needs to go though ;)
where does it say maximum aerobic speed on tinman table?
It doesn't. Just take the distance closest to 6 mins and use the pace from that was the advice, then 70% of that. If 6 mins is in-between two distances on tinman table, split difference. Has worked really well for me as sirpoc suggested, keeps me nicely under 70% MHR. This system keep it simple, no need to run time trials, lactate meter really. Just have up to date current time at any distance and go from there. It is really good, I have made impressive improvement in 10 weeks already.
This is literally a personality cult based on anecdotal n=1 experience. You guys thumb your nose up at the scientific discussion and consider it distracting, despite that if you paid attention, what people have been posting supports this style of training with actual evidence.
All the relevant information was included in post #9 and the thread should have ended there. The idea that VO2 max work isn't strictly necessary and you should try to stay under threshold isn't new and it predates Bakken, Kristoffer, Tinman, and Sirpoc. It's common sense, regardless of whether it's then obfuscated with lactate testing, stress/strain scores, interval design, and walls of text about training.
I'm going to take a break from this thread, it has become a circle jerk and all the wankery has left a bad taste in my mouth, regardless of if whether Lexel has been irritating about discussing the critical power/speed model and deserving of some amount of appraisal. No offense to Sirpoc, he is probably a very nice guy and he gives good information, but the reaction to it, you think it was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
He's doing 100+ minutes of intervals per week and thinks he has stumbled upon a training secret (newsflash, you are just running a lot of volume for a mediocre 17 5k). Check out the threads where people are running these times on 20 mpw.
He's doing 100+ minutes of intervals per week and thinks he has stumbled upon a training secret (newsflash, you are just running a lot of volume for a mediocre 17 5k). Check out the threads where people are running these times on 20 mpw.
Have read the thread He was running a lot before and getting nowhere.l, already at least 6 hours a week. It's an alternative approach for those who are older and stagnated, or just can't handle anything hard. The 100 mins a week is very controlled, deliberately, so you can do it over and over and over. If you don't understand the thread, just say you don't understand what is happening here? If a 56 10 at 40 years old with no running background and limited success in the previous year is mediocre, please sign me up to that!! That's faster than 99% of hobby joggers. What I'm most interested about is how you can just keep doing it over and over and over and seemingly not get injured. I think that's the thing that hasn't been talked about much? Loads have tried this now as well as seeing on Strava, but nobody seems to be reporting it's a one way street to breaking down?
Have read the thread He was running a lot before and getting nowhere.l, already at least 6 hours a week. It's an alternative approach for those who are older and stagnated, or just can't handle anything hard. The 100 mins a week is very controlled, deliberately, so you can do it over and over and over. If you don't understand the thread, just say you don't understand what is happening here? If a 56 10 at 40 years old with no running background and limited success in the previous year is mediocre, please sign me up to that!! That's faster than 99% of hobby joggers. What I'm most interested about is how you can just keep doing it over and over and over and seemingly not get injured. I think that's the thing that hasn't been talked about much? Loads have tried this now as well as seeing on Strava, but nobody seems to be reporting it's a one way street to breaking down?
I also was thinking this has the huge benefit to the system. Nobody is reporting injury's like we have seen in other threads, or feeling like they are really on the limit. I think that is why you really have to think about it as control and discipline. It's so easy to get carried away running at HM pace for 5x2k and push it. Once you go beyond it, maybe into the actual threshold territory rather than sub, that's where you are going to start straining the body 3 times a week?
This thread has been great by LRC standards. I don't think sirpoc even tried to become the go to person on this, just someone trying to help and has answered lots of question not just on here but on Strava, when something has come out that someone isn't sure about. But as has been mentioned, he doing this for free and this thread is full of TONS of interesting stuff aside from just the sessions themselves. TSS and CTL is something I have become very interested in and can't believe I didn't use it before. It's really helping me shape my own training coach free.
If you are an older runner I genuinely believe this might be the best system you can hope for. It's at least worth a try for everyone who's older and maybe looking to limit the pain the really fast stuff brings.
dutch_in_uk, nwsa, and whoever else is interested... hope this is what you're after.
Keeping with Daniels approach of equalizing effort based on duration (not distance), I put this together. The values you see listed under the interval duration at the different paces is meters run at the respective pace. So, based on your VDOT level, you can choose to run for the duration of time at that pace or settle on an interval distance that is around what running for that duration of time would produce (i.e. if your VDOT is 50, instead of running for 8 minutes at 4:20 per km, which would be 1,845 meters, you can choose to go a little less and do a 1600m or go a little more and do a 2000m repeat).
In addition, if you want to use paces based on race distances, I put together two additional tables. One with race times for the distances of interests referred to on this thread and another which lists the paces for those distances. This could also be used for running a time trial and then assigning/updating paces based on your performance.
This is literally a personality cult based on anecdotal n=1 experience. You guys thumb your nose up at the scientific discussion and consider it distracting, despite that if you paid attention, what people have been posting supports this style of training with actual evidence.
All the relevant information was included in post #9 and the thread should have ended there. The idea that VO2 max work isn't strictly necessary and you should try to stay under threshold isn't new and it predates Bakken, Kristoffer, Tinman, and Sirpoc. It's common sense, regardless of whether it's then obfuscated with lactate testing, stress/strain scores, interval design, and walls of text about training.
I'm going to take a break from this thread, it has become a circle jerk and all the wankery has left a bad taste in my mouth, regardless of if whether Lexel has been irritating about discussing the critical power/speed model and deserving of some amount of appraisal. No offense to Sirpoc, he is probably a very nice guy and he gives good information, but the reaction to it, you think it was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
He's doing 100+ minutes of intervals per week and thinks he has stumbled upon a training secret (newsflash, you are just running a lot of volume for a mediocre 17 5k). Check out the threads where people are running these times on 20 mpw.
oh sweetheart, he’s under 17:00 at this point, you gotta keep up with our hero worship in real time
he he he, newsflash you might be the obsessive one
HE was just laying out what was useful to HIM, no ones making you do anything so stop crying
you should check out this thread though and you might actually learn something
I've really enjoyed the thread so far. Coming back from a running hiatus and stumbled upon this thread. This is really intriguing for someone like myself (35M with job and family) with limited time to devote to this hobby but still want to get some big goals (eg. BQ someday).
Maybe this has been answered already, but I haven't seen it addressed yet in 20 pages of thread, but if one wanted to do continuous work (4-8M lets say) how would that look? I ask because as someone who is more focused on HM/Marathons I like the mental aspect of locking in for 30-45mins at a certain pace/effort. IIRC NAU training in the summer does a lot of work at around M pace. They describe this as SubT work. (Working Stiff or HanSolo had a link years ago, I think this is it: ) . That would mimic this would it not? Basically 'working it from the bottom' as you've put it before. I'm thinkin of utilizing these concepts as I get back to my own training. Currently working on building mileage and a base, but would love to build where I'm doing six days a week 3 SubT efforts (1 of which in a long run, something like 30mins easy: 30 mins at HM-M: 30mins easy)
XC Northern Arizona XC - 2017 (men),Key (daniels paces) Date,Day,Activity,Notes,What the Girls Did,Sub T,Marathon Pace 6-12,Mon,Double mileage run + strides,T,Tempo Pace 6-13,Tue,4 mile Sub T + double easy run,Sub T is a Mara...
I've really enjoyed the thread so far. Coming back from a running hiatus and stumbled upon this thread. This is really intriguing for someone like myself (35M with job and family) with limited time to devote to this hobby but still want to get some big goals (eg. BQ someday).
Maybe this has been answered already, but I haven't seen it addressed yet in 20 pages of thread, but if one wanted to do continuous work (4-8M lets say) how would that look? I ask because as someone who is more focused on HM/Marathons I like the mental aspect of locking in for 30-45mins at a certain pace/effort. IIRC NAU training in the summer does a lot of work at around M pace. They describe this as SubT work. (Working Stiff or HanSolo had a link years ago, I think this is it: ) . That would mimic this would it not? Basically 'working it from the bottom' as you've put it before. I'm thinkin of utilizing these concepts as I get back to my own training. Currently working on building mileage and a base, but would love to build where I'm doing six days a week 3 SubT efforts (1 of which in a long run, something like 30mins easy: 30 mins at HM-M: 30mins easy)
The idea behind breaking-up the SubT work as opposed to doing a continuous tempo run is that you can control the lactate better and you can run faster paces because you have breaks. As has been discussed several times throughout the thread, SubT is a state and the pace will vary based on the length of the rep. So 400s can be faster than 1,000s, which are faster than miles, etc. Using this logic, you would need to slow down even more for a continuous tempo. Drew Bosley posts most of his training on Strava. He is often doing reps on the track at 4:48 pace and continuous subT at Buffalo Park 20ish seconds per mile slower. Not a perfect comparison, since Buffalo Park is a slower surface than the track, but somewhere in the 10-15s per mile might be right. I’d be curious to hear what others think. The problem with doing long tempos is that most people lack the discipline to keep things under control. The tempo turns into a time trial. They’re not working the appropriate system. By using repetitions with breaks, you’re less likely to overcook it.
where does it say maximum aerobic speed on tinman table?
It doesn't. Just take the distance closest to 6 mins and use the pace from that was the advice, then 70% of that. If 6 mins is in-between two distances on tinman table, split difference. Has worked really well for me as sirpoc suggested, keeps me nicely under 70% MHR. This system keep it simple, no need to run time trials, lactate meter really. Just have up to date current time at any distance and go from there. It is really good, I have made impressive improvement in 10 weeks already.
I've really enjoyed the thread so far. Coming back from a running hiatus and stumbled upon this thread. This is really intriguing for someone like myself (35M with job and family) with limited time to devote to this hobby but still want to get some big goals (eg. BQ someday).
Maybe this has been answered already, but I haven't seen it addressed yet in 20 pages of thread, but if one wanted to do continuous work (4-8M lets say) how would that look? I ask because as someone who is more focused on HM/Marathons I like the mental aspect of locking in for 30-45mins at a certain pace/effort. IIRC NAU training in the summer does a lot of work at around M pace. They describe this as SubT work. (Working Stiff or HanSolo had a link years ago, I think this is it: ) . That would mimic this would it not? Basically 'working it from the bottom' as you've put it before. I'm thinkin of utilizing these concepts as I get back to my own training. Currently working on building mileage and a base, but would love to build where I'm doing six days a week 3 SubT efforts (1 of which in a long run, something like 30mins easy: 30 mins at HM-M: 30mins easy)
if youre going to do continuous work and not fartlek, really know your heart rate zones and how much you can drift. if your lthr is 165 say, you tempos better be topping out at 155 at the very end. way too easy to make the tempos into much higher stress workouts
where does it say maximum aerobic speed on tinman table?
It doesn't. Just take the distance closest to 6 mins and use the pace from that was the advice, then 70% of that. If 6 mins is in-between two distances on tinman table, split difference. Has worked really well for me as sirpoc suggested, keeps me nicely under 70% MHR. This system keep it simple, no need to run time trials, lactate meter really. Just have up to date current time at any distance and go from there. It is really good, I have made impressive improvement in 10 weeks already.
The training paces section, I'm assuming, not the race equivalents?
I've really enjoyed the thread so far. Coming back from a running hiatus and stumbled upon this thread. This is really intriguing for someone like myself (35M with job and family) with limited time to devote to this hobby but still want to get some big goals (eg. BQ someday).
Maybe this has been answered already, but I haven't seen it addressed yet in 20 pages of thread, but if one wanted to do continuous work (4-8M lets say) how would that look? I ask because as someone who is more focused on HM/Marathons I like the mental aspect of locking in for 30-45mins at a certain pace/effort. IIRC NAU training in the summer does a lot of work at around M pace. They describe this as SubT work. (Working Stiff or HanSolo had a link years ago, I think this is it: ) . That would mimic this would it not? Basically 'working it from the bottom' as you've put it before. I'm thinkin of utilizing these concepts as I get back to my own training. Currently working on building mileage and a base, but would love to build where I'm doing six days a week 3 SubT efforts (1 of which in a long run, something like 30mins easy: 30 mins at HM-M: 30mins easy)
The idea behind breaking-up the SubT work as opposed to doing a continuous tempo run is that you can control the lactate better and you can run faster paces because you have breaks. As has been discussed several times throughout the thread, SubT is a state and the pace will vary based on the length of the rep. So 400s can be faster than 1,000s, which are faster than miles, etc. Using this logic, you would need to slow down even more for a continuous tempo. Drew Bosley posts most of his training on Strava. He is often doing reps on the track at 4:48 pace and continuous subT at Buffalo Park 20ish seconds per mile slower. Not a perfect comparison, since Buffalo Park is a slower surface than the track, but somewhere in the 10-15s per mile might be right. I’d be curious to hear what others think. The problem with doing long tempos is that most people lack the discipline to keep things under control. The tempo turns into a time trial. They’re not working the appropriate system. By using repetitions with breaks, you’re less likely to overcook it.
I tried to work on 3x2 and 3x3 this summer at HMP/MP w/appropriate rest breaks. That kept me steady and consistent in pacing, so I see where you are coming from on that.
dutch_in_uk, nwsa, and whoever else is interested... hope this is what you're after.
Keeping with Daniels approach of equalizing effort based on duration (not distance), I put this together. The values you see listed under the interval duration at the different paces is meters run at the respective pace. So, based on your VDOT level, you can choose to run for the duration of time at that pace or settle on an interval distance that is around what running for that duration of time would produce (i.e. if your VDOT is 50, instead of running for 8 minutes at 4:20 per km, which would be 1,845 meters, you can choose to go a little less and do a 1600m or go a little more and do a 2000m repeat).
In addition, if you want to use paces based on race distances, I put together two additional tables. One with race times for the distances of interests referred to on this thread and another which lists the paces for those distances. This could also be used for running a time trial and then assigning/updating paces based on your performance.
If you do this, how long before seeing results and moving up? or how much time should you expect to give yourself? Current VDOT is 46.7 (based on marathon time).
