Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

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2 years ago 10/27/2023 11:33am EDT

re: (*_*)

(*_*) wrote:
This is literally a personality cult based on anecdotal n=1 experience. You guys thumb your nose up at the scientific discussion and consider it distracting, despite that if you paid attention, what people have been posting supports this style of training with actual evidence.
All the relevant information was included in post #9 and the thread should have ended there. The idea that VO2 max work isn't strictly necessary and you should try to stay under threshold isn't new and it predates Bakken, Kristoffer, Tinman, and Sirpoc. It's common sense, regardless of whether it's then obfuscated with lactate testing, stress/strain scores, interval design, and walls of text about training.
I'm going to take a break from this thread, it has become a circle jerk and all the wankery has left a bad taste in my mouth, regardless of if whether Lexel has been irritating about discussing the critical power/speed model and deserving of some amount of appraisal. No offense to Sirpoc, he is probably a very nice guy and he gives good information, but the reaction to it, you think it was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

With all due respect, nothing against the guys debating the scientific debate. Most of us here reading, or in the Strava group, are hobby joggers wanting to get better, with limited time and scientific understanding. This thread, for the most part, presents itself in such a way that older runners like me can likely get better , without as much injury risk in a very basic and simple way in a time crunched manner, without worrying about lactate meters etc. That's it. I can't speak for everyone, but I think that has what has captured the imagination and I for one on the group Fusio created on Strava have loved seeing PBs from people of all ages, gender, training like this.. No tricks, no magic sessions, just absolute basics set out in a structured way from the first couple of pages of this thread. Let's not get into classic early 2000s lets run territory and ruin a perfectly good thread.

On another note, thank you Hard2find. That's a very neat chart and will help a lot.

2 years ago 10/27/2023 12:32pm EDT

re: (*_*)

(*_*) wrote:
This is literally a personality cult based on anecdotal n=1 experience. You guys thumb your nose up at the scientific discussion and consider it distracting, despite that if you paid attention, what people have been posting supports this style of training with actual evidence.
All the relevant information was included in post #9 and the thread should have ended there. The idea that VO2 max work isn't strictly necessary and you should try to stay under threshold isn't new and it predates Bakken, Kristoffer, Tinman, and Sirpoc. It's common sense, regardless of whether it's then obfuscated with lactate testing, stress/strain scores, interval design, and walls of text about training.
I'm going to take a break from this thread, it has become a circle jerk and all the wankery has left a bad taste in my mouth, regardless of if whether Lexel has been irritating about discussing the critical power/speed model and deserving of some amount of appraisal. No offense to Sirpoc, he is probably a very nice guy and he gives good information, but the reaction to it, you think it was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

The basic idea of this training was clear at the very beginning of this thread.

It is really hard to ruin a thread on side 58. How dumb are some guys here?

I agree, it is really fascinating a guy copies a training intervention from another guy, not even invented by his own, provides zero scientific background, because he knows very little to nothing about it, and people think he is the master of the training universe.

How dump the society is getting? People can be easily manipulated, quite shocking.

Don't let you intimidate.

Suckers: Downvote this to your earliest convenience!

2 years ago 10/27/2023 12:48pm EDT

re: lactate

lactate wrote:
The basic idea of this training was clear at the very beginning of this thread.
It is really hard to ruin a thread on side 58. How dumb are some guys here?
I agree, it is really fascinating a guy copies a training intervention from another guy, not even invented by his own, provides zero scientific background, because he knows very little to nothing about it, and people think he is the master of the training universe.
How dump the society is getting? People can be easily manipulated, quite shocking.
Don't let you intimidate.
Suckers: Downvote this to your earliest convenience!

Pretty unfair comment. You can look back at sirpoc Strava or training logs. He was doing this training 10+ years ago on the bike. You should re-read the thread. It's not exactly the same, but based on stumbling across Kristoffer he had the confidence to try it for like a year, then answer everyone's questions, be polite and try and help anyone that's asked. If KI was here to, we would all be asking him. There's plenty of information many others have provided, as to why this works, without digging into the weeds to over complicate a training method that a lot of us are interested in or even trying ourselves. He's not after followers, he's not selling anything, he's literally just helping a bunch of hobby joggers along with a few other top contributors to this thread. Put your toys back in the pram and get over the downvotes. It's LRC.

2 years ago 10/27/2023 1:49pm EDT

re: (*_*)

(*_*) wrote:
This is literally a personality cult based on anecdotal n=1 experience. You guys thumb your nose up at the scientific discussion and consider it distracting, despite that if you paid attention, what people have been posting supports this style of training with actual evidence.
All the relevant information was included in post #9 and the thread should have ended there. The idea that VO2 max work isn't strictly necessary and you should try to stay under threshold isn't new and it predates Bakken, Kristoffer, Tinman, and Sirpoc. It's common sense, regardless of whether it's then obfuscated with lactate testing, stress/strain scores, interval design, and walls of text about training.
I'm going to take a break from this thread, it has become a circle jerk and all the wankery has left a bad taste in my mouth, regardless of if whether Lexel has been irritating about discussing the critical power/speed model and deserving of some amount of appraisal. No offense to Sirpoc, he is probably a very nice guy and he gives good information, but the reaction to it, you think it was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

I'm convinced (*_*) is lexel at this point.

2 years ago 10/27/2023 5:31pm EDT

re: dutch_in_uk_again

dutch_in_uk_again wrote:
I just had a brief look, this is awesome. 60 min 1k/3:30 min pace and so on? Up to 3k repeats maybe longer? sirpoc84 on Strava is following this I think quite close? I rightly think his 3.2k for example somewhere near what you have 90- 120 min pace? 60 min looks roughly what he is doing 1k repeats at? You might know, I guess you speak to him?
Would be good to see him on podcast. He is very enthusiastic. I am guy who met him at Great south run again posting. I think at level he is, training is very unique, few doing it to this consistency or extreme but he explained to me verbally very well.
I can't say I didn't LOL at your Lexel comment Hard2find. Good to see you back in thread, I enjoyed your posts before. Scientific but birlte size. I don't have idea what these other dudes say. I hope Lexel takes it in good spirit intended. This thread is good fun as well as information, even if CV joke at his expense.

Glad it's of interest! I think people could use it however they find it works best for them, given their fitness and approach to workouts. Shorter repeats could be faster and longer repeats slower or find a pace range that works for you and run within that no matter if its 1k, 2k, 3k, etc. The choice is yours!

I am going to try and work on something that would approximate equivalent efforts. I know Daniels has his own point system and of course there is TSS, but it seems that many of us feel like they misrepresent the VO2Max to threshold equivalence as we have experienced it? Maybe I'm wrong about that though?

I too hope lexel knows I'm just joking and wanting to inject a little humor. I included CV pace in the chart as well, in his honor.

This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.

2 years ago 10/27/2023 5:36pm EDT

re: WvA

WvA wrote:
I'm convinced (*_*) is lexel at this point.

Really? I'm convinced you are an idiot. I am not going to be your new bogeyman so keep me out of it. Anyone who read the conversation I had with Lexel would know we didn't agree on much. I never had a LetsRun account, and I didn't even know it existed up until recently.

Someone seemingly just registered (*_*) too so I had to change my username, this person isn't me.

2 years ago 10/27/2023 5:57pm EDT

re: (*_*)

Lexel, stop trolling every good thread here with your CV fundamentalism!

And for the last damn time, velocity is a vector and speed its module! It should be critical speed!!!

2 years ago 10/27/2023 6:03pm EDT

re: jma

Lexel becoming #1 troll on LR, more than JS. I applaud this, impressive. Even JS early on couldn't bust this thread.

2 years ago 10/27/2023 6:06pm EDT

re: Burrito Track Club fan

Burrito Track Club fan wrote:
Lexel, stop trolling every good thread here with your CV fundamentalism!
And for the last damn time, velocity is a vector and speed its module! It should be critical speed!!!

I don't think you have a leg to stand on when you think skiing is an upper arm only exercise, lmao. They say imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery so I hope you enjoy your new account.

#1150

This post was removed.

#1151

This post was removed.

2 years ago 10/28/2023 5:34am EDT

This quoted post has been removed.

Burrito is short minded, that is his/her? problem. Ate too much of them possibly.

2 years ago 10/29/2023 2:34pm EDT

re: lactate

lactate wrote:
(*_*) wrote:
This is literally a personality cult based on anecdotal n=1 experience. You guys thumb your nose up at the scientific discussion and consider it distracting, despite that if you paid attention, what people have been posting supports this style of training with actual evidence.
All the relevant information was included in post #9 and the thread should have ended there. The idea that VO2 max work isn't strictly necessary and you should try to stay under threshold isn't new and it predates Bakken, Kristoffer, Tinman, and Sirpoc. It's common sense, regardless of whether it's then obfuscated with lactate testing, stress/strain scores, interval design, and walls of text about training.
I'm going to take a break from this thread, it has become a circle jerk and all the wankery has left a bad taste in my mouth, regardless of if whether Lexel has been irritating about discussing the critical power/speed model and deserving of some amount of appraisal. No offense to Sirpoc, he is probably a very nice guy and he gives good information, but the reaction to it, you think it was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
The basic idea of this training was clear at the very beginning of this thread.
It is really hard to ruin a thread on side 58. How dumb are some guys here?
I agree, it is really fascinating a guy copies a training intervention from another guy, not even invented by his own, provides zero scientific background, because he knows very little to nothing about it, and people think he is the master of the training universe.
How dump the society is getting? People can be easily manipulated, quite shocking.
Don't let you intimidate.
Suckers: Downvote this to your earliest convenience!

I dont know, the stupidity bar is set quite high with this blathering post of yours.

You sound like a broke coach that isn’t getting the respect you clearly deserve.

You should start a LR thread on that. Im sure it will be a classic

2 years ago 10/29/2023 7:42pm EDT

re: spoc

do you use VDOT calculator to calculate your paces for distances?

2 years ago 10/30/2023 7:08am EDT

re: jbartyy

jbartyy wrote:
do you use VDOT calculator to calculate your paces for distances?

So, if you are sure of your vdot, based on a very recent time, someone made a spreadsheet in Strava group set up with sirpoc's paces. Also, hard2find his threshold paces ranges on the previous page is very good, great starting point , if you are looking to make this work.

Any news on a podcast with sirpoc? I would definitely add my name to the list who would love to listen to that. This system has been working wonders for me since I found the thread in the summer. I have absolutely smashed through a massive plateau, I couldn't be more pleased with the results!

2 years ago 10/30/2023 9:43am EDT

re: spoc

spoc wrote:
The rest of the sessions are anything from 25x400 to 3x3k.
25x400 is probably around 98-99% of Tinman's CV.
10x1k is around 12-15k pace.
5x2k is around HM pace.
6x1600 right around 10 mile pace.

Just to go right back to the second page of this thread for people joining late who may be confused as the discussions in here have been side tracked, the above is pretty much exactly what elicits threshold state at various interval lengths. If an example is needed, Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen ran a threshold session on Thursday of 10 x 1k with 60 second rest, averaging 3:24/k. This is exactly his 12k-15k pace (3:22-3:25). He showed a picture of the lactate meter reading 2.9.

Strava activity here:

strava.com

Sandnes stadion - 10x1000m - Kristoffer I's 16.0 km run

Warm up 3km - 10x1000m on ca 3.24 p60sec - cool down 2km. LT 2.9(10). Mye tanker i hodet idag, da ble det å finne ut hvilken økt jeg hadde lyst å ha.

Link:www.strava.com/activities/10108692269

The first few pages of this thread are essential reading.

2 years ago 10/30/2023 11:55am EDT

re: jma

Almost breaking 56 for a 10 miler I agree is incredibly impressive, off this training. But how do we know the guy wouldn't have easily ran 55 or less if he had added in some speedwork?

2 years ago 10/30/2023 12:10pm EDT

re: genuine question?

genuine question? wrote:
Almost breaking 56 for a 10 miler I agree is incredibly impressive, off this training. But how do we know the guy wouldn't have easily ran 55 or less if he had added in some speedwork?

With respect, the thread is your friend. This has all been answered. I know it's long, but it's actually worth it for a LRC thread. Sirpoc trained via what I would call a classic Daniels method, for around the year and barely improved if not went back, in the second half of that. He got stuck as a 19 runner. I don't want to put words into his mouth, but the jist of it is he felt tired all the time and the vo2 stuff on top of the tempo straight was really putting him in a spiral a lot of us also have found ourselves in before. With this new approach, for well over a year, the improvement started again and hasn't stopped, carefully ramping up the load that probably isn't quite as possible to control Daniels style in my opinion. We aren't talking a little improvement. He was likely not even gonna break 65 minutes a year or so ago when the brick wall was hit, for 10 miles. Now he's ran a very low 56 . I am very curious if he will choose to run a half, I think it could be a very good time indeed. If that's not worth reading the whole thread for, I don't know what is.

2 years ago 10/30/2023 12:14pm EDT

re: jma

Whilst I am here , my first post, as I have been lurking, I have a question for Hard2find.

Would it be possible for you to add into your excellent pdf, the times and/or distances recommended to run for the threshold paces? Maybe match it up to what sirpoc has outlined in the thread? No problem if not, just thought I would ask. Looking at up votes clearly I'm not the only one interested in your chart.

2 years ago 10/30/2023 4:00pm EDT

re: high school coaching

high school coaching wrote:
I would agree a podcast would be a good idea. I've listened to many pods on the Norwegian model. All of which are doubles and lactate meters. For 99% of listeners it's really just something the pros do. Whereas what sirpoc84 has done is really make one of the best starter guides for hobby joggers who are a bit stuck on progress, that I have seen, possibly ever. Someone suggested crib notes of something a couple of months back, but I'm actually all for the audio format where we can listen back to it a couple of times if needed. I'm sure there are others who read this thread properly, where light bulbs went off. So come on podders, someone pin him down and get him on. On another note, as someone who is in the Strava group, that's also lovely to see other people from this thread now having success with this approach. I've started to think about how I can apply this to my athletes for the coming season, so I will hopefully come back and report on that down the line!

This is a great thread. I am grateful for sirpoc's advice. Ran a 3:25:24 marathon (not at 100% though) and now I have some current fitness data to use when I drop down to 5k to train with, in terms of daily single LT workouts. I don't anticipate doing doubles; just want to fit in singles and see how I can improve my short distances first.

I think he said something like 7:10-7:20 pace for consistent, all-around improvement with these workouts (1000m/2000m thresholds).

Per Tinman:

5k-21:19 (6:51)

10k-44:26 (7:09)

10M-1:13:50 (7:23)

13.1M-1:38:31 (7:31) *Ran 1:37:06 (7:24 in actual race earlier this year)

26.2M-3:25:24 (7:51)

If I can use these paces and build a series of single thresholds off that, using the Norwegian methods, that will serve me when I do 5ks and other races.

EDIT: I am using TME's calculator for my calcs because it features CV, rather than JD (somewhat similar) but JD's does not mention CV:

runfastcoach.com

The Running Calculator

Link:runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.

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