50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

amkelley wrote:

Good race, Allen! 10 guys in your 5-year age group with fewer than 90 total isn't something I ever see in my neck of the woods. I'm used to there being a lot of 50+ runners but not to that extent, and in most of my local races at anything shorter than the marathon distance, roughly 60% of the runners are female. Wondering how many were in the female equivalent of your age group, and what the winner ran.

Thanks, amkelley! I had originally planned to run the concurrent 5K, looking for this year's elusive sub-19, but with my recent hamstring woes I scratched that, then decided on Thursday to race the 15K on Saturday. I rarely race in Rochester, and don't know the competition there any more. I raced there a lot in the 1980s, after running at RIT and starting my career locally. You worked at U of R back in the '90s, as I recall?

Here are the race stats:

Total finishers: 81

Total F55-59: 4

Winning time F55-59: 1:17:15 (8:17/mi)

Total F60-64: 3

Winning time F60-64: 1:17:24 (8:18/mi)

Overall winner was an M44-49 with 47:50.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you do in the upcoming HM. With your impressive training mileage, plus biking, do you ever give any thought to running another marathon? When was your last one?

amkelley -- Your 60%/40% F-to-M stat is pretty typical here, too. The 15K was unusual with 54 men and 32 women. The concurrent 5K was 55 female, 35 male. Both races had very low numbers overall. I'm not sure why.

Allen: your 15K is worth 19:11 for 5K on the WMA calculator, so consider yourself redeemed.

Allen1959--dang, I'm glad I'm not in Rochester any more. It was a strong running scene when I was there (at U of R from 1987-1999) and apparently still is. Even in a little race like that it's unlikely I could have won the F60-64; I only managed 8:36/mile in my half-marathon last weekend and I wouldn't have been all that much faster over 15K.

I last finished a marathon in 2004 (3:22 at San Franciisco). Since then I have DNF'd twice and DNS'd a couple of other times, most recently in the summer of 2015 when I injured, apparently permanently, my right Achilles. I simply can't stay healthy long enough when doing the mileage necessary to train for a marathon. Perhaps I have unrealistic expectations about what marathon training should look like at my age, but I think I need at least 2-3 runs of 20 miles or more and I just can't seem to work up to that anymore without getting injured. I can seemingly still handle regular "long runs" of 13-16 miles.

There's still in the back of my mind the idea that maybe I should try to qualify for Boston one more time and then actually finish it. I BQ'd many times back when I was fast, but I only started Boston once and didn't even make it as far as Wellesley. My BQ time now (new standards) is only 4:20, barely under 10-minute miles, and it sure seems like I ought to be able to make that. But I might not run for months afterward if I tried...

Things continue to go well. This was my best week in awhile. I even dusted off the golf clubs and hit some balls at the driving range. I hadn’t made those motions in 5 months, so there was a bit of soreness and fatigue for a couple of days afterwards, but no biggie. I was hoping to play a few holes later in the week, but the weather did not cooperate. Hopefully I’ll get out there this week. I don’t expect it to be pretty.

Sun: off

Mon: golf activities

Tues: 52’ jog; body wt ex

Wed: off

Thu: 53’ jog; body wt ex

Fri: walk w/ the bride

Sat: 55’ jog; body wt ex

Best to most.

Olde Farte wrote:

Things continue to go well. This was my best week in awhile. I even dusted off the golf clubs and hit some balls at the driving range. I hadn’t made those motions in 5 months, so there was a bit of soreness and fatigue for a couple of days afterwards, but no biggie. I was hoping to play a few holes later in the week, but the weather did not cooperate. Hopefully I’ll get out there this week. I don’t expect it to be pretty.

Sun: off

Mon: golf activities

Tues: 52’ jog; body wt ex

Wed: off

Thu: 53’ jog; body wt ex

Fri: walk w/ the bride

Sat: 55’ jog; body wt ex

Best to most.

Good week of exercises.

YMMV wrote:

Allen: your 15K is worth 19:11 for 5K on the WMA calculator, so consider yourself redeemed.

Well, was actually hoping for sub-19 this year. I ran 19:13 at the end of August, so it is good to see a little bump on the equivalency tables since then. Thanks!

To have a shot at sub-3 marathon next year, I really should be running 18:30s. Or 18:45, at least. I have never consistently trained at more than 45 miles per week, so am looking for 60 mpw to be the magic wand ... if I can stay healthy enough to do it. And improve my time management skills enough to schedule 10 miles a day.

Allen1959 wrote:

YMMV wrote:

Allen: your 15K is worth 19:11 for 5K on the WMA calculator, so consider yourself redeemed.

Well, was actually hoping for sub-19 this year. I ran 19:13 at the end of August, so it is good to see a little bump on the equivalency tables since then. Thanks!

To have a shot at sub-3 marathon next year, I really should be running 18:30s. Or 18:45, at least. I have never consistently trained at more than 45 miles per week, so am looking for 60 mpw to be the magic wand ... if I can stay healthy enough to do it. And improve my time management skills enough to schedule 10 miles a day.

It's for good reason that sub-3:00 at age 60 is so uncommon. Good luck in your quest.

Well, I got a present for my birthday on Tuesday and was able to run about 20 minutes on Pre's trail in Eugene. The night before I could only walk and do a couple very short jogs, so it wasn't promising. My hotel had a bunch of exercise equipment in the room (foam roller, yoga mat, stretch bands) so I did that afterwards, but I wasn't expecting much the next day. I only had a short window in the morning, but was delighted to jog about 20 minutes total, with a walking break in the middle - true, I nearly threw up, but I was very pleased (AND, it wasn't raining -a rarity in Eugene).

Since then, I've "run" about 20 minutes or so (so maybe 2 miles) every day, and managed a 30 min. jog today. While I am extremely grateful, I am also terrified that any time now, my leg will seize up and I won't be able to walk. I had so patiently worked up after the fall when out of nowhere I cramped. I've taken the advice not to venture too far so I can stop if necessary.

All hope of even a modest cross country season is gone - it's less than 2 months out and I don't know how to proceed (although I'd previously gotten a ticket to Spokane, so I will be there). I'm a run-every-day kind of woman, but it seems like I'm going to have to make some changes. I know that what works for us in the past, ceases to work for the older runner.

Whereas I was basically just scaling back runs and doing the same H/E type schedule (a workout and a long run and lots of easy runs) as usual in my latest attempt at running again, I am afraid that I'll inadvertently re-tweak it and just end up having to take *another* 3 weeks off and that is not helping. And even though aqua jogging doesn't hurt whatever this injury is, it's not helping my fitness much and not preventing re-injury

I have been doing the MYRTL routine for the last 10 days and actually that seems to be beneficial. Might as well strength my core and increase my hip flexibility as I think that's my only hope. But what should I do for my "training" - just slowly inch up my mileage to a shadow of my previous training? Or should I just do the harder run, a longer run and do a lot of cross training (ie aqua jogging) for recovery? And to increase my efforts regarding the strength/flexibility as those take time which I'd normally use to run?

Advice please?

FWIW, I may have covered a *whopping* 14 miles this week (which would be fairly appropriate to start with since my last week of training was ~35 miles in 6 days) and it felt pretty good since I've been working on the flexibility stuff. Still a bit anxious about it.

Thanks. Oh, and "Happy birthday, cush", my fellow October child.

MG

MG,

Here are my thoughts. As you know achilles/calf and hip/glute/hammy injuries are common injuries for distance runners generally, but often prove career ending for many masters athletes. My unscientific assumption is most of these are interrelated biomecanical imbalances. It can be as simple as leveling your hips. For example, an anterior tilt of one degree to one side of the hip can lead to compensatory stress to the calf/achilles or hip complex. These small changes are hard to detect and set off a chain of biomechanical reactions. Not running or running too much is not a cure. So rather than trying to run further focus on form and getting your stride feeling smooth and comfortable. In fact you may feel better running slightly faster than a jog, and worse slightly slower than a jog. Walking should also help, but the same focus on form should govern the activity.

Hope this helps.

Igy

Thanks, Igy.

Every time I have pain/injury and go to the chiropractor, my hips are rotated (sometimes a lot, others only a little), so I know this is an ongoing issue. My left foot rotates more than my right due to leg differences, so the whole leg moves more -- and causes my right side, which generally doesn't have pain, to be much tighter because it is working harder to balance things out.

Fingers crossed that I can do something this week.

MG

This is not an uncommon assertion. Many coaches focus on form as a key element of successful biomechanics. But it is a dated notion (thus no surprise to read it on this thread).

No one has perfect form. The imbalances alluded to above are found to some degree in every runner. Certainly these can become problematic when taken to the extreme. But most of us have adapted quite well to our biomechanics shortcomings. Our very running has molded our bodies into the efficient machines that we have become.

In short, emphasis on form is usually wasted time and energy. Just run, baby.

Muddy girl wrote:

Thanks, Igy.

Every time I have pain/injury and go to the chiropractor, my hips are rotated (sometimes a lot, others only a little), so I know this is an ongoing issue. My left foot rotates more than my right due to leg differences, so the whole leg moves more -- and causes my right side, which generally doesn't have pain, to be much tighter because it is working harder to balance things out.

Fingers crossed that I can do something this week.

MG

MG,

My contention is you have a functionally short leg. The problem is a very tight iliopsoas muscle and weak glute. It is hard if not impossible to correct the problem by stretching and strengthening alone. The exercises and therapy are all good. When running you want to tuck in the glute on the short leg side. You will be executing it correctly when the foot rotation lessens or stops. The anterior tilt of the hip on the short leg side is causing the functionally short leg. Also, try to mimic the foot plant of the good leg to the poor. As the previous poster said it is narural to have variation, however the degree of variation is critical. All of the above is my personal experience since I have the same issue.

Igy

amkelley wrote:

I only managed 8:36/mile in my half-marathon last weekend ...

Checking results of a dozen area half marathons, your time would have won all but two (F60-64): Syracuse (1:42:22) and Wineglass-Corning (1:39:23).

allen1959: You seem to be running well these days. Hope that translates into some decent races this fall.

Cush: Good luck with 5:00 mile, again.

Logged 43 miles this week, took Wednesday off. Pretty much felt like crap except for Monday and Saturday. Didn't feel like doing any workouts but I salvaged the week with a decent 10 on Saturday. We were all over the place with the weather. Ran with no shirt Tuesday night but needed a hat and gloves by Saturday. I'm liking the cooler temps.

Here's my log for those playing along at home...

Mon: 8.0 miles @ 7:42/mi. Steady run, hot and humid!!! No shirt in October. 744,741,741,743.744,743,742,740

Tue: am: 3.6 miles. Easy morning wakeup run, no watch, no time. Still very warm and humid. pm: 4.3 miles @ 8:01/mi. Easy run. Still hot & humid. Legs heavy. 757,753,811,802

Wed: Day off. Feeling kind off fatigued, heel a bit more sore than usual

Thu: 6.0 miles @ 7:57/mi. Kind of draggin' this morning. Dark, cold 48 deg and breezy. 827,805,756,745,745,741

Fri: 5.0 miles @ 7:59/mi. Still feelin' clunky. Nice morning, 42 deg and calm. 826,801,752,752,742

Sat: 10 miles @ 7:23/mi. Solid run without checking the watch. Awesome 34 deg morning. Nice to feel good for once! 750,733,735,728,733,708,714,713,717,703

Sun: 5.8 miles @ 8:29/mi. Just an easy jog around town. Nice sunny cool Fall day! 840,830,829,825,820

I think I decided to skip the 5K this weekend. I should probably get in a decent week of training instead. I did enter a 10K on Oct 27 while visiting our son in Greenville SC. Its a good way to balance out all the food I'm going to eat!

Have a good week,

Dave

Igy and Phoenix - 800s, wow, I don't do those at all. I'm doing 200s as well, once a month, but higher reps, 16x200 at the beginning of a race training cycle, 12x200 this week as I prepare for a 5K. Pete the fleet feet Magill says doing mile pace for 200m-400m increases anaerobic capacity, even when you take 1:1 or longer recoveries. He has less to say about 800s, so I'm interested to know where they are appropriate. All I run is 5Ks but sometimes I think I'm focusing too much on the 14% that's anaerobic and not enough on the 86% that's pumpin' oxygen.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

phoenix.rising wrote:

Lots of weights and track-ness around here. The weather continues to cooperate.

This mornings workout was 6x200 with a 200 walk back for rest. All under 33 seconds.

I'm thinking about that 800m training more and more. I think I'll jump into it next week. Any tips

from the 2 lap experts on this thread?

Phoenix,

A good variation of your workout today would be the same 6 x 200m with 20 seconds recovery. Of course your pace would have to be adjusted in accordance with the short rest. I would estimate closer to 36-38 seconds based on your current paces with full recovery, but a workout more specific to the 800m in my view. Numbers 5 and 6 will make your lungs burn and your toes curl.

Igy

MG, if you've just started doing myrtl then it sounds, I'm guessing here, like you don't do a whole lot of injury prevention. The good news is you're doing it now and it only gets better. I agree with the anonymous poster with the clever moniker:

Paula has World Record form wrote:

No one has perfect form. The imbalances alluded to above are found to some degree in every runner. Certainly these can become problematic when taken to the extreme. But most of us have adapted quite well to our biomechanics shortcomings. Our very running has molded our bodies into the efficient machines that we have become.

In short, emphasis on form is usually wasted time and energy. Just run, baby.

From the get-go two years ago I read two things from masters coaches over and over - form doesn't matter and injury prevention is critical, and Igy's right, how do you get your run back if you're in endless pain? So I now invest a good 4-5 hours a week into all of these, in varying quantities:

1. Circuit training (I loves the Runner 360, which takes Myrtl to the next levl)

2. Weights (half for strength half for injury prevention; see Pete's video below)

3. Static and rope stretching

4. Towel scrunch, heel dip, big toe taps, ankle mobility - all those anti-PF Achilles-strengthening reps

5. Lunge matrix and leg swing (LMLS, also see below), 10x before hard workouts, 3-5x before easy ones.

In addition I've learned a piriformis stretch that works on my one nagging post-run sore muscle (under my left butt cheek).

The upshot is that all this gives me confidence to let my body find the running form it wants, knowing I'm keeping everything strong.

KC Geezer,

Certainly someone can approach the 800/1500m from the strength side. However, if you want to improve your 800m adding some work that actually replicates race stress is necessary. If not you are going to get out about 600m and wish you did.

Igy