This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
wazzu1452 wrote:
The pandemic ends when the internal polling says it ends.
This sounds very much like we heard before the 2020 election, that the pandemic would magically end right after the election because it was always just a myth the MSM promoted to attack Trump. That theory didn't really hold much water.
The Janitor wrote:
wazzu1452 wrote:
The pandemic ends when the internal polling says it ends.
This sounds very much like we heard before the 2020 election, that the pandemic would magically end right after the election because it was always just a myth the MSM promoted to attack Trump. That theory didn't really hold much water.
Antivaxxers recycling the same refuted talking points??!! Preposterous!
Ghost of Disco Gary wrote:
Democrats are scared sh!tless that American truckers will do the same thing Canadian truckers are doing... hence why the sudden shift in the COVID narrative. The science didn't change. The lies just stopped working.
the level of immunity in the population and treatments methods.... BOTH SCIENCE. Did change.
WTF are you saying? Nothing changed.... that some .
also no one is afraid of American truckers. It's funny as restrictions go away. Right wingers have to gin up the anger so they turn to the Canadian truckers to keep the rage machine going. Yay! you can sell more chinese madeT-Shirts and hats saying you support Canadian truckers. You have a new market for confederate flags. OAN can eek out a few more segments of TV.
Wuzzle Wuzzle4 wrote:
Ghost of Disco Gary wrote:
Democrats are scared sh!tless that American truckers will do the same thing Canadian truckers are doing... hence why the sudden shift in the COVID narrative. The science didn't change. The lies just stopped working.
the level of immunity in the population and treatments methods.... BOTH SCIENCE. Did change.
WTF are you saying? Nothing changed.... that some .
also no one is afraid of American truckers. It's funny as restrictions go away. Right wingers have to gin up the anger so they turn to the Canadian truckers to keep the rage machine going. Yay! you can sell more chinese madeT-Shirts and hats saying you support Canadian truckers. You have a new market for confederate flags. OAN can eek out a few more segments of TV.
The science changed slightly with delta and completely with omicron. Vaccines, which in the past had been able to control transmission, no longer were able to control transmission. When that occurred, the rationale behind mandates flew out the window, as unvaccinated individuals were no more of a threat to public health than the vaccinated. That is why the protest in Canada is a reasonable one.
joed| rt wrote:
Wuzzle Wuzzle4 wrote:
the level of immunity in the population and treatments methods.... BOTH SCIENCE. Did change.
WTF are you saying? Nothing changed.... that some .
also no one is afraid of American truckers. It's funny as restrictions go away. Right wingers have to gin up the anger so they turn to the Canadian truckers to keep the rage machine going. Yay! you can sell more chinese madeT-Shirts and hats saying you support Canadian truckers. You have a new market for confederate flags. OAN can eek out a few more segments of TV.
The science changed slightly with delta and completely with omicron. Vaccines, which in the past had been able to control transmission, no longer were able to control transmission. When that occurred, the rationale behind mandates flew out the window, as unvaccinated individuals were no more of a threat to public health than the vaccinated. That is why the protest in Canada is a reasonable one.
Antivaxxers disproportionately contribute to hospitalizations and death. Are there no public health consequences from that?
Very high vaccine coverage turns covid into the flu; antivaxxers are very much a threat to public health
Is JoeD anti vax or anti mandate or anti booster? He just changes his tune as his “statistical” BS gets destroyed over and over.
Even his anti mandate case is poor. Vaccines 1) reduce severe disease and death which burdens out healthcare system. Does Joe want more restrictions and lockdowns instead 2) Do reduce transmission, especially 3 doses, even with Omicron.
Lastly there are virtually no mandates. He’s found the perfect thing to rail against… a straw man.
2600 bro wrote:
Is JoeD anti vax or anti mandate or anti booster? He just changes his tune as his “statistical” BS gets destroyed over and over.
Even his anti mandate case is poor. Vaccines 1) reduce severe disease and death which burdens out healthcare system. Does Joe want more restrictions and lockdowns instead 2) Do reduce transmission, especially 3 doses, even with Omicron.
Lastly there are virtually no mandates. He’s found the perfect thing to rail against… a straw man.
Can you imagine claiming there are virtually no mandates? While, at the same time, arguing for mandates?
carmine9 wrote:
2600 bro wrote:
Is JoeD anti vax or anti mandate or anti booster? He just changes his tune as his “statistical” BS gets destroyed over and over.
Even his anti mandate case is poor. Vaccines 1) reduce severe disease and death which burdens out healthcare system. Does Joe want more restrictions and lockdowns instead 2) Do reduce transmission, especially 3 doses, even with Omicron.
Lastly there are virtually no mandates. He’s found the perfect thing to rail against… a straw man.
Can you imagine claiming there are virtually no mandates? While, at the same time, arguing for mandates?
Liar
The organizers of the trucker protest in Canada have the stated goal of having "governments across Canada end all mandates".
No disrespect to truckers, Canadian or otherwise, but making them (and by them I mean the less than 10% of them who remain unvaccinated) the arbiters of public health policy seems self evidently insane.
2600 bro wrote:
Is JoeD anti vax or anti mandate or anti booster? He just changes his tune as his “statistical” BS gets destroyed over and over.
Even his anti mandate case is poor. Vaccines 1) reduce severe disease and death which burdens out healthcare system. Does Joe want more restrictions and lockdowns instead 2) Do reduce transmission, especially 3 doses, even with Omicron.
Lastly there are virtually no mandates. He’s found the perfect thing to rail against… a straw man.
I've been consistent in my messaging:
1. Vaccine mandates should not exist, as they protect the individual, not the public. If someone chooses not to get vaccinated, it is at their own risk.
2. Vaccines are a good idea for anyone over 30 or with a pre-existing health condition, especially for those over 60.
3. There is no compelling reason for those under 25 (unless they have a severe risk factor) to get vaccinated.
4. Those who have recovered from a prior COVID infection should be treated the same as those who have been vaccinated, as they have better immunity than those who have been vaccinated. Case rates, hospitalization rates, and death rates for the previously infected are all lower than the vaccinated (even lower than the boosted).
5. Disposable masks work and are an effective way to control transmission. I have no issues with mask mandates as they do not put an individual at risk for an adverse reaction and (unlike vaccines at this point) actually curb transmission. Since vaccines are ineffective at stopping transmission, there is no justification for them.
joed| rt wrote:
I've been consistent in my messaging:
1. Vaccine mandates should not exist, as they protect the individual, not the public. If someone chooses not to get vaccinated, it is at their own risk.
2. Vaccines are a good idea for anyone over 30 or with a pre-existing health condition, especially for those over 60.
3. There is no compelling reason for those under 25 (unless they have a severe risk factor) to get vaccinated.
4. Those who have recovered from a prior COVID infection should be treated the same as those who have been vaccinated, as they have better immunity than those who have been vaccinated. Case rates, hospitalization rates, and death rates for the previously infected are all lower than the vaccinated (even lower than the boosted).
5. Disposable masks work and are an effective way to control transmission. I have no issues with mask mandates as they do not put an individual at risk for an adverse reaction and (unlike vaccines at this point) actually curb transmission. Since vaccines are ineffective at stopping transmission, there is no justification for them.
The only issue with these points is that they are nearly all incorrect.
Vaccines protect capacity of the the healthcare system. During the Delta wave we saw many examples of hospitals rationing care because antivaxxers will filling all their beds. Vaccines prevent this. So, there is a prosocial reason for mass vaccination.
Those who have recovered from prior COVID have, according to actual studies and not dashboard squinting, a wide range of immune responses that may be as good as 3x vaccination but is quite individually variable. Absent standard protocols for determining if your infection gave 'good enough' immunity, vaccination makes sense. (Even disregarding the benefit of getting superior 'hybrid immunity.')
3x vaccines is fairly effective at stopping transmission of Omicron, and certainly effective against other strains.
The risk of vaccine-injury:covid-injury is absolutely and obviously in favor of the vaccine even for young adults. Contending otherwise requires ignoring countless trials and observational studies.
You would gain a lot of credibility if you owned up that your last two months of fearmongering has been pointless. Vaccines held the line quite well against severe disease from Omicron, as they did with Delta.
My point was the science did change for a variety of reasons. I guarantee you that w/o vaccines masks would be still be in use more.
The argument that "nothing changed" since 2020 is beyond stupid...it's a lie and a known lie.
Also unvaccinated are a threat to public health by using resources . They are more likely to get Covid (omicron) and more likely to spread the disease more. The protest is another selfish temper tantrum by American right wingers wanting to keep rage in the news.
Wuzzle Wuzzle4 wrote:
My point was the science did change for a variety of reasons. I guarantee you that w/o vaccines masks would be still be in use more.
The argument that "nothing changed" since 2020 is beyond stupid...it's a lie and a known lie.
Also unvaccinated are a threat to public health by using resources . They are more likely to get Covid (omicron) and more likely to spread the disease more. The protest is another selfish temper tantrum by American right wingers wanting to keep rage in the news.
I got covid twice, twice from vaccinated individuals.
But you can procede with your anger-filled comments. I am sure you would like to put all unjabbed people in a gas chamber.
Harambe wrote:
joed| rt wrote:I've been consistent in my messaging:1. Vaccine mandates should not exist, as they protect the individual, not the public. If someone chooses not to get vaccinated, it is at their own risk.2. Vaccines are a good idea for anyone over 30 or with a pre-existing health condition, especially for those over 60.3. There is no compelling reason for those under 25 (unless they have a severe risk factor) to get vaccinated.4. Those who have recovered from a prior COVID infection should be treated the same as those who have been vaccinated, as they have better immunity than those who have been vaccinated. Case rates, hospitalization rates, and death rates for the previously infected are all lower than the vaccinated (even lower than the boosted).5. Disposable masks work and are an effective way to control transmission. I have no issues with mask mandates as they do not put an individual at risk for an adverse reaction and (unlike vaccines at this point) actually curb transmission. Since vaccines are ineffective at stopping transmission, there is no justification for them.
The only issue with these points is that they are nearly all incorrect. 70% of hospitalizations in Ontario are still vaccinated.
Vaccines protect capacity of the the healthcare system. During the Delta wave we saw many examples of hospitals rationing care because antivaxxers will filling all their beds. Vaccines prevent this. So, there is a prosocial reason for mass vaccination.
Those who have recovered from prior COVID have, according to actual studies and not dashboard squinting, a wide range of immune responses that may be as good as 3x vaccination but is quite individually variable. Absent standard protocols for determining if your infection gave 'good enough' immunity, vaccination makes sense. (Even disregarding the benefit of getting superior 'hybrid immunity.') It outperforms vaccination in every metric in every place that tracks reinfections. Your Kaiser study and UKHSA data both affirm this.
3x vaccines is fairly effective at stopping transmission of Omicron, and certainly effective against other strains. Still less effective than prior infection in the statistics.
The risk of vaccine-injury:covid-injury is absolutely and obviously in favor of the vaccine even for young adults. This is debatable for the prior infected and young males.
Contending otherwise requires ignoring countless trials and observational studies. You would gain a lot of credibility if you owned up that your last two months of fearmongering has been pointless. Vaccines held the line quite well against severe disease from Omicron, as they did with Delta.
Vaccine efficiency waned by 10-13 times what it was prior to Omicron, at least acknowledge the data, or are you just going to ignore the record numbers of vaccinated hospitalizations and deaths during that wave of the pandemic?.
carmine9 wrote:
The whole BS narrative is completely falling apart.
Yes it is:
"Massive Cover-up as Governments Lie about Vaccinated Deaths and Label Them Unvaccinated."
https://thenewamerican.com/massive-cover-up-as-governments-lie-about-vaccinated-deaths-and-label-them-unvaccinated/"DOD and NIH Are Fraudulently Changing DOD Data After 3 Whistleblowers Expose The Vaccine!"
https://thenewamerican.com/dod-and-nih-are-fraudulently-changing-dod-data-after-3-whistleblowers-expose-the-vaccine/What is really criminal with the entire government covid response is pretty
much everything considered true before was totally disregarded and not
reviewed as time went on.
Examples that come to mind:
Masks
Before covid: masking is ineffective to stop the spread of colds and flu
During: 100 days of mask wearing and covid will be gone
After: I guess masks didn't do anything
https://unherd.com/2022/02/were-masks-a-waste-of-time/
Lockdowns
Before: any lockdown hard enough to do anything useful will destroy the
economy.
During: That guy out there surfing is going to kill us all.
After: killed the economy, not the virus
Vaccine
Before: mass vaccination with a leaky vaccine (which at this time didn't
even meet the definition of a vaccine) is a bad idea. It will promote natural
selection to the virus getting around the vaccine and cause the vaccine
becoming ineffective for those who most need it.
During: vaccinate your 5 year olds despite no benefit and known harmful
side effects.
After: vaccines have very little affect on omicron. Luckily, the way the virus
got around the leaky vaccines was not by becoming more deadly.
Spread is not driven by the asymptomatic
Before: generally considered true
During: totally not true
After: I think it has been shown to be mostly true. Of course it used to be
you had to have symptoms to have been considered to have had something.
Not just test positive.
Elementary schools are a big driver of cold/flu spread
Before: kids are germ factories
During: shut down the schools
After: kids are not the driver of covid spread and aren't in danger themselves.
Even like 40% community masking has been shown in RCTs to reduce COVID transmission.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abi9069
Lockdowns were heavy handed but likely necessary in early 2020 to prevent a complete failure of healthcare systems like had happened in Wuhan and Italy. Lockdowns in 2021 we’re due to a failed government response to get timely rapid testing and mask use normalized.
All your vaccines comments are just inane drivel. The vaccines work very well at preventing severe disease and death and decently well at stopping transmission. They are a breakthrough, transformative technology that costs orders of magnitude less than COVID-19 critical care.
rgvt wrote:
Wuzzle Wuzzle4 wrote:
My point was the science did change for a variety of reasons. I guarantee you that w/o vaccines masks would be still be in use more.
The argument that "nothing changed" since 2020 is beyond stupid...it's a lie and a known lie.
Also unvaccinated are a threat to public health by using resources . They are more likely to get Covid (omicron) and more likely to spread the disease more. The protest is another selfish temper tantrum by American right wingers wanting to keep rage in the news.
I got covid twice, twice from vaccinated individuals.
But you can procede with your anger-filled comments. I am sure you would like to put all unjabbed people in a gas chamber.
I don't know about a gas chamber but about half of the Democrats aren't particularly fond of us. Lol
"Shock Poll: Nearly Half Of Dems Want Unvaccinated Americans To Be Arrested Or Put In Internment Camps."
https://thecovidworld.com/shock-poll-nearly-half-of-dems-want-unvaccinated-americans-to-be-arrested-or-put-in-internment-camps/This legislation could only come from a radical Leftist: 😯
"Illinois Democrat demands concentration camps for anti-vaxxers and those who refuse forced government medications (op-ed)"
https://www.naturalnews.com/2022-02-02-illinois-democrat-demands-concentration-camps-for-anti-vaxxers.htmljoed| rt wrote:
Harambe wrote:
The only issue with these points is that they are nearly all incorrect. 70% of hospitalizations in Ontario are still vaccinated.
Vaccines protect capacity of the the healthcare system. During the Delta wave we saw many examples of hospitals rationing care because antivaxxers will filling all their beds. Vaccines prevent this. So, there is a prosocial reason for mass vaccination.
Those who have recovered from prior COVID have, according to actual studies and not dashboard squinting, a wide range of immune responses that may be as good as 3x vaccination but is quite individually variable. Absent standard protocols for determining if your infection gave 'good enough' immunity, vaccination makes sense. (Even disregarding the benefit of getting superior 'hybrid immunity.') It outperforms vaccination in every metric in every place that tracks reinfections. Your Kaiser study and UKHSA data both affirm this.
3x vaccines is fairly effective at stopping transmission of Omicron, and certainly effective against other strains. Still less effective than prior infection in the statistics.
The risk of vaccine-injury:covid-injury is absolutely and obviously in favor of the vaccine even for young adults. This is debatable for the prior infected and young males.
Contending otherwise requires ignoring countless trials and observational studies. You would gain a lot of credibility if you owned up that your last two months of fearmongering has been pointless. Vaccines held the line quite well against severe disease from Omicron, as they did with Delta.
Vaccine efficiency waned by 10-13 times what it was prior to Omicron, at least acknowledge the data, or are you just going to ignore the record numbers of vaccinated hospitalizations and deaths during that wave of the pandemic?.
The day you understand the base rate fallacy will be the greatest day in the world. Until then, it is simply shocking that you can make the exact same arithmetic and logical mistakes over and over and over. A classical example of motivated reasoning trumping critical thinking.
In your favorite land of Ontario, hospitalization protection has waned from 95% to ~85%. That is a 4-fold drop that is confounded by many things, including increasing immunity in the unvaccinated population from infection. It is certainly not 10-13 fold.
The UK data is even stronger in support of the vaccine.
In healthy adults, the rate of complications from COVID still far exceed the rate of complications from the vaccine. The only place this gets close is looking at exclusively myocarditis in adolescent males. Ignoring all other bad things COVID can do, the two risks -may- be within an order of magnitude. That's all you've got. Strong case....
900k+ COVID deaths and even more excess deaths in the US. Remember when original projections suggested 1 million + deaths and all these sudden epidemiology geniuses laughed at that?
2600 comes to mind…